RE: For those of you who tow w/ mini-vans

Acts 2:38 girl · Sep 28, 2003, 07:05 PM

We are looking for a new vehicle. Although I do really like my Ford Aerostar, it s literally rotting off the frame, so there is NO WAY we d even attempt to tow with it. I read the thread about tow vehicles, but it didn t seems to help answer my questions. I need a van because I don t want the children to be able to even touch each other-otherwise there is someone crying! (usually me! [

]) I ve heard that even though a mini-van can tow a camper, power is usually lost going up hills, etc. We had a huge GMC conversion van last year and it didn t even notice the hills. It really stunk in the snow though, and sucked down the gas. This will be a bad factor until gas goes down (around $1.63/gallon here) DH was thinking about an Astrovan? Any opinions out there?

SactoCampers · Mar 12, 2003, 11:02 AM

Acts 2:38 girlWith three sons and another on the way, you ll probably want an Astro AWD, though I ve seen some low mileage Aerostars (with AWD) out there, too. Used Astros with low mileage are very inexpensive compared to new (~$15-16k)

QuoteI ve heard that even though a mini-van can tow a camper, power is usually lost going up hills, etc

Power is lost with all vehicles going uphill. Gravity and altitude has that effect [

][8D]. Just kidding. What you re talking about is *reserve* power, of which a full-size van with V8 has more. But be forewarend, even though an Astro has a very high tow capacity relative to other minivans, it still has a V6 (190 hp, 250 ft/lb torque) and so you won t be winning any drag races. That s one of the erroneous arguments I see made every now and then: that higher towing capacity equals better performance (acceleration, power). An Astro (or mid-size SUV for that matter) with 5000 lb towing capacity will not out-accelerate or go faster up a hill than a Windstar with 3500 capacity because it s mainly about power-to-weight, with gearing also being an influential factor. But the Astro is better designed to handle the *other* stresses involved in towing. That said, I wouldn t anticipate you having any problem holding highway speeds up hills, so it s probably a good fit for you considering the size of your family (you re FF-EMT s wife right?).

Power and fuel economy are usually a tradeoff. Can t really have both unless you have a diesel. There s new van about to be released called the Dodge Sprinter:

http://www.kbb.com/kb/ki.dll/kw.kc.ns?kbb.CA;102230;CA113&95616;van&1320;Dodge;2003%20Sprinter%20Wagon&M9M17A5;M9M17&&Vans&&nc

It has a diesel and according to KBB a 5000 lb tow rating. Advertisements from Dodge indicate a possible 22 mpg in mixed driving. This is much higher than an Astro. Power isn t significantly more than the Astro, though.

http://www.dodge.com/sprinter/?context=trucks&type=sprinterImg

Chevy is now coming out with a full-size van that has driver s side passenger doors. You ll have plenty of power with that vehicle, but fuel economy will not be a consideration.

http://www.chevrolet.com/express/index.html

GaryWT · Mar 12, 2003, 11:19 AM

Acts 2:38 girlWe have towed with many vehicles, 2 of them vans. A Grand Caravan and a Nissan Quest. Both worked well and if you can plan your hills then there is not any real problem. We have travelled mostly in New England and all in the Northeast. We have looked at the Astro vans and the Windstar amoung others but unfortunately I did not fit in either of these, limited head room. Good luck on your search.

6Quigs · Mar 12, 2003, 11:47 AM

Acts 2:38 girl

QuoteDH was thinking about an Astrovan?

DH is on the right track.
We have a Safari (similar to the Astro), and it is both a great tow vehicle, and a passenger van.
With it s 190 HP engine we have plenty of power towing our 3,500 pound 12 foot Coleman Niagara up the mountains in California, and that s with us and 4 kids.

Thew are rear wheel drive, which gives them a 5,000 pound towing cpacity against the normal 3,500 pound capacity of most other front wheel drive minivans.
The rear wheel drive though is not the best in the snow, so you should get one with All Wheel Drive.
The space inside is comparable to the Aerostar.
We could not fit three car seats in the back row of most minivans, but no problem with the Safari/Astro.
There is plenty of space behing the third row seat, which was a big issue with us.
Most Minivans, or even SUV s could not fit our double stroller behind the rear seat.
Definetly go to a dealer and take one for a test drive. You should be able to pick up a used one a lot cheaper than new.

YellowXterra · Mar 12, 2003, 12:54 PM

Acts 2:38 girlWe had a 1990 Astro it hade the BIG V6 4.0 I think. Loads of power.

mike4947 · Mar 12, 2003, 01:39 PM

Acts 2:38 girlMy 2 cents worth. While the Atro/Safari vans do tow like a dream they suffer from reliability problem. The 4.3 V6 is a strong engine but GM has had apx 8% major warranty claims with this engine. (excessive oil consumption, head gaskets, and just blown up) The front ends components are also a weak link.
My father loved Astro vans and owned three of them. Two had major engine problems and two had front end component failures. Chevy made good on the engines and we replaced the OEM front suspension components with Moog aftermarket parts.
Either Air/lifts or a WDH is required over 2000 pounds gross trailer weight. I say " or" as GM recommends a WDH but many of our PU brands say not to use one so the Air/Lifts are a good substitute in the case of the Astro/Safari.

SactoCampers · Mar 12, 2003, 01:50 PM

mike4947

QuoteMy 2 cents worth. While the Atro/Safari vans do tow like a dream they suffer from reliability problem. The 4.3 V6 is a strong engine but GM has had apx 8% major warranty claims with this engine.

It s funny you mention that, Mike because within Nick-Neff-Cough we have differing opinions from members with the same engine. I remember talking with Civil_War_Buff (when I m not rabble rousing him) at our rally last June. He towed a Niagara with a Chevy Blazer with the 4.3 and complained about how slow it was from a standstill. Yet here we also have 6quigs who tows a Niagara with a GMC Safari with 4.3 and says it has plenty of power.

So I suppose it s all a matter of perspective. I imagine the vehicle it replaces has a lot to do with your opinion. 6Quigs replaced a 1992 145 hp Ford Explorer, and I don t think Civil_War_Buff towed prior to purchasing the Niagara.

When I replaced my Intrepid with the T&C, I sacrificed acceleration and hill-climbing power for a better suspension, better cooling system, more cargo carrying capacity, higher towing capacity, and overall reliability. All have come true except for the last one.....my engine blew up a few weeks ago. Thank god for that extended warranty.

MattH · Mar 12, 2003, 03:15 PM

Acts 2:38 girlWe have a 2003 Grand Caravan eX. It s 3.8l 6 will push out 220 hp and 245 ft lbs torque. I m pretty certain that it has the most hp and torque of all the minivans now.

Matt

SactoCampers · Mar 12, 2003, 03:27 PM

MattH

QuoteORIGINAL: MattH

We have a 2003 Grand Caravan eX. It s 3.8l 6 will push out 220 hp and 245 ft lbs torque. I m pretty certain that it has the most hp and torque of all the minivans now.

Matt

Only problem with the EX is that it isn t available with the trailer tow package or load-leveling suspension. The key components of the trailer tow package are heavy duty transmission cooler, engine oil cooler, and brakes. The load-leveling suspension is heavier duty than the normal duty suspension offered in the EX. These available options are what give the Grand Caravan Sport or ES the 3800 lb tow capacity over the 2000 capacity of the EX. The EX is a good minivan, it just doesn t have as high a tow capacity, so I would exclude it from my list of recommended minivans for Acts 2:38 Girl. I would recommend instead Sport or ES with the 3.8 and tow package for somebody looking to tow with a DC minivan.

6Quigs · Mar 12, 2003, 03:42 PM

Acts 2:38 girl

QuoteWe have a 2003 Grand Caravan eX. It s 3.8l 6 will push out 220 hp and 245 ft lbs torque. I m pretty certain that it has the most hp and torque of all the minivans now.

But it only has the 3,500 pound towing capacity.
My 190 HP Safari has a 5,400 pound towing capacity.

As Sacto pointed out, Our old Explorer had a 145 HP engine, yet was rated to tow 5,000 pounds. We could feel the 3,500 pound weight of our Popup, especially going up hills.

The 4.3 V6 engine has adequate power for our needs, and I know Firefyter_emt has been discussing the need for a larger Popup to accomodate the extra child, be it a boy or girl,(fingers crossed for tomorrow)[

]

wssfetch · Mar 12, 2003, 05:20 PM

Acts 2:38 girlHave had no engine problems with my Astro nor with the 1994 Safari that it replaced. The 2001 does not have quite the headroom that the 1994 had (exterior height is the same, just the interior finish is different.) They hold tons of stuff and tow well.

notrailends · Mar 12, 2003, 07:06 PM

Acts 2:38 girlI tow with the EX caravan and it does great,it does better than I thought it would
The only thing I did was add a set of www.activesuspension.com for the extra
weight in the rear. It came with a tranny cooler&4 wheel disc brakes. Good Luck

Gatsmommy · Mar 12, 2003, 10:17 PM

Acts 2:38 girlI reasearched out all the mini-vans before we bought one on the theory that " some day" we d have a Pop-Up to pull! LOL.

In a nutshell Astro s, Safari s, and Aerostar s have the best towing capabilities, around 5,000 lbs tow rateing.

Almost all others have a tow rating of 2,000lbs unless they have a tow package added (not easy to find if you re looking used, at least here). With tow package most of the main ones can tow 3,500lbs...i.e. Caravan s, Windstar s, T&C.

Kia Sedona s come with a standard tow rating of 3500lbs. We had no problem with our old trailer (1200 lbs dry) and with our Santa Fe DH said he noticed a diffrence, but it seem to be fine. But we ve only towed it home from the dealer so far.

The reason we went with a Kia is that they we re one of the cheapest, had one of the best warrenty s, had a really good safty rating, and get comparable gas mileage. Astro s and Safari s seem to be more in the SUV range when it comes to gas mileage. The Kia is my main everyday vehical. Also we knew that we would not need a PU that would exceed the tow rating for at least the next 10 years.

So it really comes down to what you re needs are, and what you need to pull.

Gone-Camping · Mar 12, 2003, 11:16 PM

Acts 2:38 girlYou might consider one of the larger SUV s... The Dodge Durango has a third seat, and even the Explorer can be purchased with a third seat. And they have great tow capacities! I also have an Aerostar that runs great, and in these parts, NO RUST. I ll sell it to ya...[

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AustinBoston · Mar 13, 2003, 08:49 AM

Acts 2:38 girlAndrea,

Make sure you think forward 3-4 years. As the three & 1/2 kids you now have get bigger, are you going to want a bigger pop-up? Probably yes. You need a vehicle that can handle not only what you have, but what you will move to.

Almost any minivan will tow your current pop-up, but when you go up a step in order to sleep six people, the weight will go up as well. At the same time, the boys will weigh more, their luggage will weigh more, their " toys" will weigh more...all that weight comes off the tow rating one way or another.

When it comes to towing, you have seen our Bayside (3500 lbs.) and our Astro, and you have seen it accelerate and climb modest hills - fully loaded. As you followed us, did you find yourself waiting for us to " get going," or was the acceleration adequate?

We have towed the Bayside with the Astro now for over 20,000 miles without a problem (but see below). That included some fairly steep hills (8% and more for as much as 4-5 miles), sometimes at altitudes over 8,000 feet. All of that was at over 90% of the Astro s gross combined weight rating.

We have towed for over an hour in 111F temperatures in stop-and-go traffic. That was preceeded and followed by hours of 100F+ towing at highway speeds. There was a slight rise in engine temperature, but the gauge stayed at least 20 degrees below redline. You can bet the A/C was on full blast.

Under non-towing circumstances, we average 20-22 MPG, and typically get between 16-18 MPG with the trailer.

Now for the other side.

The Astro doesn t have a lot of front passenger foot room. I don t think it would be a problem for Lee, but if you are going to spend any time in the front passenger seat, make sure it is something you can live with.

I don t know about the overall failure rate, but we got a bad engine out of the box, burning oil. Chevy made good on it (replaced engine). The dealer spent 11 days on the job.

The van has gone about 70,000 miles since, including the 20,000+ miles of towing.

We have had the ignition system replaced (distributor cracked & it was near normal service time so we replaced a bunch of related stuff at the same time).

We had to have the differential bearings replaced at about 55,000 miles. Since the van was out-of-warranty, that set us back more than a few $$$. To add injury to injury, as soon as the repairs were out of warranty, we had to do it again. [:@]

The Astro only does a mediocre job in slippery conditions. There is an AWD option, but it costs $$$, cuts into the tow rating, and makes some repairs significantly more expensive. Our original engine replacement could have taken 2-3 more days if we had the AWD.

The ABS brakes are too sensitive. Every time we go over a rough patch of road, we end up doing a quick pump on the brakes to trick the ABS. The dealer insists that s how it s supposed to work.

Even though it has a high tow rating, I feel the rear suspension is a little too soft. People expect this minivan to ride like a car. It s not a car, it s a truck with a van body. We have replaced the standard shocks with load sensing shocks, and always use a WDH. Despite what others have done, DO NOT use air bags, air shocks, or helper springs with this minivan, because the rear suspension travel is part of the ABS system. The ABS system works poorly enough without interfering with it.

Perhaps you and PJay should renew plans to get together. Then you could spensd a little time with an Astro and get her opinions as well.

I think the Astro/Safari is an excellent tow vehicle, and for the most part, we are pleased with it, but the maintenance issues are starting to wear that thin.

Austin

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