RE: Fist trip with new TV and new Trailer and boy did it S _ _ _ !!!

[P-MAN]

 
SWAY!!!!
 
 OK, I need for some of you that have been towing for a while, or have towed with different tow vehicle / trailer combos to weigh in on this one....
 
 Our old TV & Trailer combo was a 2000 Chevrolet Silverado Extended Cab 4 x 4,   5.3L V8, with Camper Cap pulling a 2001 Coleman Mesa.  Truck weighed about 6300 loaded for camping, with DW and I in it.  The Mesa weighed around 3200 fully loaded.  Sway was never an issue.  Never sensed that the truck was being " pulled"  on by the trailer.  Trailer never seemed so sway, although admittedly I have only been towing since July 2001, when we bought the Mesa.
 
 We traded in the  01 Mesa on an  03 Bayside and traded the Silverado in on a 2003 Ford F-150 Super Crew 4 x4, 5.4L V8.
 
 Then it got interesting.... On 1 May The DW got laid off... She was supposed to start a new job on 5 May.... So, we cancelled out of the COTOC North South State Park trip and a follow on trip to the White Mountains in NH; a 10 day vacation we had been looking forward to for 6 months... On 5 May, DW s " new"  employers call and tell her they can t have her start till Wednesday the 7th... On 7th, new employer calls and states first day will be 12th... Since the 8th was my birthday, and we had yet to use the new camper, we make a hurried decision to do a quickie camping trip to Bethpage CG, in Urbana, VA down on the Rappahannock River.... We trailer up and head to Bethpage at about 4 in the afternoon on the 8th.
 
 I had never towed the Bayside with the F-150 for more than 2 or 3 miles and never over 35 MPH or so.  (When we bought the Bayside, we still had the Silverado...and...in driving the 100 or so miles from the dealer to our home, I don t recall any unusual handling...).  While driving to Bethpage everything went fine, but the Bayside seemed to sway quite a bit.  Perhaps wobble is more like it, but I am unsure if it was sway, wobble or what it was.  It just seemed like the slightest correction with the trucks steering wheel produced a considerable amount of wobble? or sway? in the trailer.  I never sensed that the traieler was " pulling"  on the truck, or that it was impeding the truck in any way.... But, the trailer seemed to be all over the road.  
 
 So, was I experiencing sway?
 
 OK...some facts for you to mull over as you advise me....
 
 1)  Trailer was loaded to about 3425lbs., with a max GVWR of 3450
 2)  Trailer Tires were inflated to 65 PSI.
 3)  All lug nuts on both trailer wheels were torqued to 110 ft lbs.
 4)  Tongue weight of trailer was about 300lbs, and I realize that the recommended tongue weight is 10-15%, and I was at approximately 9%
 5)  The Bayside tows at a slight up angle.  Difficult to state how much...perhaps 4 to 8 degree up angle.  Have been unsuccessful at getting trailer to tow level.  I am currently using a Reese 4 and 1/2 inch drop drawbar.  If I go to a 6 inch drop drawbar, the trailer tows at perhaps a 2-4 degree downangle.
 6)  Truck tires were at the manufactures recommended 30 PSI front, and 35 PSI rear.
   All truck lug nuts were torqued properly.
 9)  My old Silverado had a camper cap which I suspect had some affect on the air movement around the trailer....but, I am unsure of whether it was a " good"  or " bad"  affect on trailer handling.
 10)  The F-150 only has a tonneau cover.  Again, I am unsure of just what kind of affect a cap or tonneau cover has on trailer handling.
 11)  Trailer hot water tank, main water storage tank and refrigerator were all empty.
 12)  Have 2 full propane tanks on the tongue, along with a group 24 Battery.
 13) F-150 weighs approximately 6000 fully loaded.  
 
 So, what does everything think (know?).  Was I just experiencing what many who tow have experienced...i.e.. Sway?  Or am I doing something wrong.
 
 And, assuming I am just experiencing sway, will a Sway bar make a difference?
 If I buy a sway bar, do I have to do some drilling on the PU s tongue?
 
 I am very interested in what those of you who are more experienced than I have to say....
 
 Thanks,
 
 
 
 

[Red neff Barchetta]

 P-MAN
Dave -
 I am not an expert at this weight distribution thing, but I can offer the little that I know.
 The rule of thumb for weight distribution is to have 10 - 15% of the loaded trailer weight on the tongue.
 Our Utah (or I should say all Utah s) are famous for being tongue " light" , so I load the trunk with anything and everything heavy (Ice chest, box of kindling, 3 - 10 lb. weights I use for awning pole supports, etc...).  I tow with about 18% on the tongue and the Utah tows great!  A full water heater (6 gallons (48+ lbs.)) will also help.  Never have water in the fresh water tank (20 gallons, which is over 160 lbs. behind the axle) when towing.  The only exception to this for me is when we are dry camping at a cg 15 minutes from our house since I can drive nice and slow.
 It sounds like you definitely need a sway bar also.
 
 Hope this answer s some of your questions.  Don t risk your family until you are happy with your rig set-up!

[Ab Diver]

 P-MAN
P-MAN, sounds like a couple of things are contributing to your situation. First, the tongue is too light, as you know. With a full water heater, single propane tank, and dual batteries up front, I run about 370 lbs. tongue weight. No sway at all. Make sure you are not adding extra weight to the *back* of the camper when you load it for the trip, as this reduces tongue weight. Like Jeff said, load heavy stuff forward. If you can get to a truck scale, load the trailer like you have been, and get an *exact* axle weight and an *exact* total weight for the trailer. Then you will have a much better idea of how to adjust things.
 
 The trailer should be as level as possible while towing it (and weighing it). Park the trailer on a flat, level surface. Level the trailer front to back, and measure to the top of the " cup"  in the tongue plate where the ball rides. This is how high the top of the hitch ball should be when your tow rig is loaded for camping and the trailer is hitched up. If you are " 4-8 degrees"  off level, that s WAY too much. Switch to a different drop ball mount. If it s a tad too low, you can use a " riser ball"  to gain another inch in height. This is just a regular ball with a wide 1"  thick cast section directly above the threaded shank.
 
 Did you check the air pressure in the tires when they were cold, as in *before* towing the trailer at all? This is very important, as a warm tire will give a false reading of a higher pressure.
 
 The resulting drag from air turbulence behind the tow vehicle shouldn t have an effect on the trailer s handling. If it did, any small cross-winds would blow a trailer all over the road. My pickup has a camper shell, a lumber rack, and frequently a good pile of stuff on the rack when we tow the trailer. In other words, it s about as aerodynamic as an oak tree. [] No problems with the trailer from this crew-cab brick that is towing it down the highway.
 
 *FIRST* --  Dial in your tongue weight and ball height better, and see if you still are experiencing sway. These front-trunk Coleman s can need sway control more than other pop-ups. *THEN* -- If you need to add a sway bar, it s not that big a deal, and it should cure your problem.  There are 6 holes already in place on your trailer s A-frame, they are covered by plastic/rubber inserts. This is where the sway-bar s ball mount bolts to your trailer. The other end of the sway bar on the tow vehicle s ball mount will need to be welded on (flush with the ball mount s top surface), unless you buy the bolt-on type that only works on a right-side-drop ball mount. (This will, however, lift the ball s mounting height on the ball mount. Remember this if selecting a riser ball.)
 
 Hope this helps. Properly set up, your trailer should tow like a dream.
 
 

[Tim5055]

 P-MAN
In addition to Dave s comments, I suggest you check the F-150 tire pressure.  While Ford may recommend 30 - 35 PSI, what does it say on the sidewall of the tire?  The tire should be fully inflated to the tire manufacturers recommendation, not Ford s.  
 
 If you are not fully inflated you have two problems:
 
 
 [ul]
 

• The tires will not be able to carry their rated weight
• The reduced pressure will allow the sidewalls to be somewhat more flexible.  This may help induce sway
[/ul]
 
 
 As I am sure you are aware, large front trunk Colemans are known for sway.  Pick up the sway bar and have it installed.  I have seen them bot bolted and welded on the A frame.
 
 Check out my [link=

http://www.title-3.com/Sway.htm]Sway Information Web Page[/link] for more information and photos of the sway bar.

[mike4947]

 P-MAN
Tim, while max air pressure is the way to go on PU tires, I have to disagree when talking aobut " P"  or " LT"  series tires. According to Firestone/Bridgestone; 35 PSI in the rear tires support the maximum load rating that Ford puts on the rear axle of the F150.
 The standard tire that comes on a run of the mill Ford F150 has a max inflation pressure of 44 PSI. When inflated to that pressure the tire crowns badly even at max axle weight and has slightly more than 1/2 the foot print at normal pressures. That s just begging for center tire wear.

[GotDaughters]

 P-MAN
Dear P-man;
 
 I doubt what you are feeling is sway, but I would get a friction bar anyway and forget about it.  They are cheap and easy, and then you don t have to worry so much about how you load things up.  I played this same game with " am I swaying" .  It wasn t until I got my Hybrid that discovered I wasn t.  When things go into a sway you really know it.  If it did not scare the hell out of you, it was probably fine.  It s a bigger trailer than you are probably used to, and at least from my experience it makes a difference.  It took me a while to get used to my travel trailer compared to my pop-up.
 
 My advice; go with the friction sway and don t worry about it.  Oh yea and have fun.
 
 
 Sincerely;
 Gary

[Gone-Camping]

 P-MAN
P-Man... It s been a while! I want you to know, that after you smoked your drill trying to raise the top on my camper at Westmoreland, I made the decision to go with a 24v unit instead of 18v. In a way, you probably saved me a bunch of money, though the lesson may have been more costly for you...
 
 I ll second the idea of adding in a friction sway bar. I m aware that you re more than familiar with how to load the trailer, so I ll save you that much except to say that you really do need to increase the tongue weight.
 
 As for the draw bar, you might consider looking into one of the big draw bars they sell for use with the EZ Lift WDH, which are very adjustable, just the drawbar & head not the whole piece, that might help get your tongue level. I also have a tow ball that has a tall shank on it, raises it up an extra 1.5 inches, might make using a draw bar that is too low suitable as it will raise the ball up...

[Y-Guy]

 P-MAN
Having towed our Niagara with our F150, TrailBlazer and a bit with our Avalanche I can say that the friction sway bar is darn near a must for the big Coleman campers.  I did a lot of reading when I went to pick up our Niagara for the first trip, the dealer installs the Friction bars standard on all the larger Coleman campers, he said they just won t sell one without some type of sway control.
 
 Loading properly is a must as well.  I filled to 5 gallon containers when I drove the camper home the first time, I d read so many sway stories I didn t want to risk it the first time out.
 
 The key things for me was having the sway bar, loading the front properly and having a good brake controller.  Its not a bad idea to take your rig to a weigh station and see what the tongue weight is.  Many of the State weigh stations still operate even when they are officially closed.  
 
 For the peace of mind spend the $80 and get a friction sway control and then you can go camping and relax a bit more... though I bet you ll be on edge for a while now.

[BaysideBruce]

 P-MAN
And my 2 cents now...  I would highly recommend the swaybar.  I have a Silverado and a Bayside.  Last weekend we went out camping.  I had never really had a problem with sway before.  On the way back I suddenly noticed things were not the same.  The trailer seemed to be rocking and moving from side to side more than normal.  I needed gas so I pulled over at the next exit ramp that had more than one gas station to chose from.  At the station I discovered that I had forgotten to tighten up the swaybar.  What a difference that made.  I now know how much the swaybar does and it is amazing.

[craft-tk]

 P-MAN
I think I m 5thing the suggestion....GET THE SWAY BAR.  We didn t think we needed it on our Starcraft at first.  Towing home from the dealer and boy did it sway.  DS from the back seat, " Stop it Dad, I don t like this"  when it started to sway.  Needless to say, right back to the dealer and about $100 later we had a sway bar and a new hitch.  NO problem with sway after that.
 
 Good luck.  I do agree that safety is #1.

[P-MAN]

 P-MAN
Thanks to all of you for the thoughts, information and advise you provided.  I have already put some of your ideas into use and have a few more facts and thoughts on the whole situation.
 
 During the 2 seasons we used our  01 Mesa, we never, ever experienced any type of wobble or " sway"  whatsoever.  We did have a different tow vehicle then, (2000 Silverado X Cab...), but the F-150 as I have it set up/loaded on a daily basis weighs within 50lbs of the Silverado and the wheel base is about the same, so I don t think the Tow Vehicle had anything to do with it.  Many of you stated that the 12 foot box Colemans had a reputation for swaying.  I wonder if that reputation is built more on the 12 foot boxes that have Glide Out dinettes...??  I believe the Glide out adds a lot of weight to the trailer and the exact location of that additional weight may contribute to the sway.   Many of you that replied to my thread have Glide Outs.   In my situation the Mesa just never swayed and the  03 Bayside sways like all get out.  Just a thought...
 
 Some other food for thought.  I had originally weighed my trailer " empty" , that is right from the dealer right after I bought it and it was 240lb on the tongue, 2740 on the axle and 2980 overall.  (Installed equipment/options included a/c, Yakima bike rack, battery, 1 propane tank, h/w heater, empty water storage tank)  Which brings me to my first point.  With a GVWR of 3450, that left me with a total of 470 lbs to " play"  with for loading.  And, with a max of 15% of the 3450 recommended on the tongue equalling 517lbs, it would be impossible for me to get that much on the tongue, let alone the whole trailer, even if I loaded it all into the trunk, because some percentage of the weight in the trunk still gets " spread"  to the axle..., not to mention it would have put me 47 pounds over my GVWR.
 
 In March I finally loaded up the new Bayside with all the " stuff"  out of my Mesa and weighed it again.   It weighed out at 300lb on the tongue and 3180 on the axle for a total of 3480lbs, 30lbs over the allowable GVWR.  I pulled about 70lbs (I weighed everything I took off and put on the trailer...) of stuff off of the trailer, moved some other items to the trunk and added a second full propane tank (37lbs).  I figured the tongue weight would be in 350 lb range.  With the trailer set up thus, we took off to Bethpage Campground as I discussed in the opening of this thread.
 
 Since I started this thread and read your advise, I have done/noted the following things.
 
 1)  Filled up the H/W heater with the 6 gallons of water which should add right at 50lbs, with probably 80% or more going to the tongue.  (Fresh water weighs 8.32 lbs per gallon.  As a submarine sailor, one has to be acutely aware of the wight of salt and fresh water...)
 
 2)  Got myself a drawbar that allows me to tow the trailer level.  
 
 3)  Checked the trailer tire pressure again.  Interestingly enough, they both had dropped to 60psi.  When I pumped them up to 65psi originally, they were " cold"  and the trailer had not been moved out of my garage in quite some time.  It is interesting to ponder when the pressure initially dropped, or was it over time.  I ll check them again in a couple of days.
 
 4)  Checked the TV s tires for proper pressure.  The tires are Goodyear All Season 265/70R17 s and they say on them to check owner s manual for proper pressure.  The driver s side doorjam and the gas tank filler cap both say to have 30psi on the forward tires and 35psi on the rears.
 
 5)  I am getting a sway bar installed before we trailer again, which should be the weekend of 6-8 June when we go to Shenandoah Naitonal Park to camp in Big Meadows.
 
 6)  I reweighed the trailer after I made the adjustments and this time it was 400lbs on the tongue, 3100 on the axle with a GVW of 3500.  So, obviously I am going to have to make some more adjustments and get rid of about 35-40lbs of weight.  I am going to see if I can shift some more stuff to the trunk, maybe move some other stuff inside the trailer farther forward and, probably empty out the h/w heater, and weigh it one last time before heading out.  
 
 Thanks again for your inputs and stay tuned!!!
 

[mike4947]

 P-MAN
Dave, first of all congratulations on being one of he 5% elite who actually knows the weights he s towing and congrates again on being one of the 3% that does something about it.
 From the experience of our extended camping family with Coleman trailers there s a darn good reason the 12 footers come with the swaybar holes already drilled in the tongue.
 Between , as you mentioned, the offset weight of the slide out and the axle not being repositioned rearward to compensate for the " from the factory"  light front end you really need the sway control.
 Two of the family that bought Coleman biggies had to have the swaybar installed or the dealer refused to sell them.
 We ve yet to see one that could take highway speeds without some sway no matter how it was loaded or what was doing the towing.
 The worst example I ever saw was a Ford F350 dually towing a Niagara that passed me doing at least 80 and the trailer forced me off on to the shoulder and he was in the passing lane.
 
 Thanks for being a consideriate tow rig owner and here s hoping everything works great and the only SPUT s  are one you see happen to others.[][]

[GotDaughters]

 P-MAN
I hate to ask this, but if the Colemans are that inherently unstable why would anybody buy one?  The trailer is not supposed to sway.  If they all do it, then there is a design problem that makes the trailer unstable.  A sway bar treats the symptom not the disease.  Trailer sway is very dangerous, so if Coleman is telling you it is normal and just put on a sway bar I would be running out of the dealership.  A well designed trailer should be balance to the point that it is difficult to make it sway no matter how you load it.  It seems pretty sketchy to me that Coleman is comming right out and saying that they build an unstable platform.  
 
 Food for thought.
 
 Gary