Let's tell them want we want!

[Used 2B PopUPTimes]

I'm off to Louisville, KY for the RVIA's national trade show on Monday. There I'll meet with all of the pop up makers, see their new models and talk about the future - which right now is bleek for pop ups.

Folding camper sales have dropped by almost 50% since 1999 but they keep making bigger, more equipped models with price tags that make it easier to justify a travel trailer.

Here's your opportunity to tell the RV makers what you want.  If you'll  concentrate more on features and less on dealer / warranty issues, I'll take your responses to them.

Do you want a camping trailer or a $15,000 folding RV?

Let's tell them.

[wiininkwe]

Please, tell them that for what we pay for these things, we shouldn't have to worry about what part of it is going to fall off on our next camping trip.   We know something will, just never know what it'll be.   The curtains need some better kind of track assembly, the drawers need better slides and guides, the thermostat shouldn't be right at floor level where the heat never gets to it so that the furnace would turn on and off properly.   The manual for the camper should include more comprehensive information for things like the converter.   Maybe they could make two models, one for those who go to the State or private campground and grill out and hang around the fire, and a heavier duty model for those who drag the camper into the bush and give it some hard use.   It's suppose to be a camper, not a Barbie doll penthouse.

T

[gsm x2]

Thanks for the opportunity Dave.

I think it is quite common for people to have leaking plumbing problems, I would like them to replace the plastic hoses and sink drain with standard household lines.  That way I wouldn't have had needed to replace them.

Drawer slides that don't break.

Also, they put bends into their paper-thin ABS panels, which create weak points. These weak points are cracking in many units, so they should either eliminate the bends, thicken the ABS or reenforce the weak points.

There has to be a better way to attach the propane tank to the frame. The hook-and-bolt method is difficult at best, and it's nearly impossible not to mangle the threads in the process of replacing the tank.

It would be cool if they could incorporate solar material into the bunk ends...very cool indeed.

Nothing earth-shattering.  But sure would be nice additions.

Scott

[SactoCampers]

Here are my thoughts:
 
1.) I would like to see some kind of system that pulls the canvas in while you're cranking down the roof. Walking around the popup 3-4 times while popping down adds to breakdown time. I think even a loop-and-string system on all sides that we could pull on from the outside would be effective.
 
2.) I agree with Scott, non-leaking plumbing would be great
 
3.) More sturdy dinette tables. I'm not talking heavier, just better designed so they don't wobble around.
 
4.) All manufacturers should use high pressure propane lines for cooking outside and the stoves should be compatible with both systems. Flip a switch on the stove for indoor or outdoor use.
 
5.) All should use RV-style awnings that roll out/in by themselves.
 
6.) Start using lighter weight materials. If I have to pull a well-equipped popup with an SUV or minivan, as much as I like popups I'll get a hybrid instead. Maybe design a lighter weight canvas...that stuff is heavy. On the other hand, I could ask the auto manufacturers to make minivans with higher tow ratings (and they have recently). The king-sized bunk ends are really heavy to hold up while attaching the support poles.
 
7.) Give consumers certain package combinations to choose from, not just one. For example, the outdoorsy type might want rant roof racks for their popup to put the bikes, an extra propane tank, batteries, and/or small generator. Whereas somebody else might want the interior decor pack, sliding front storage trunk tray, add-a-room, etc. While another might want beefier suspension, diamond coated front, 15" off-road tires solar panels etc. Their marketing teams should know which type of customers want which types of features because I don't, I'm just giving suggestions.
 
8.) Little things like the ball-on-a-rod hitching up assist system would be a nice freebie to throw in.
 
9.) Make all of the popups compatible with WDH systems. Even the smaller ones. That may allow some mid-size cars to pull the lighter ones without exceeding their rear axle capacity.
 
10.) Floor insulation. Styrofoam is cheap and lightweight.
 
11.) Model-specific reflector panels for the bunkends and also for the interior for cold weather camping. They could attach/detach by velcro I've found they are effective at preventing excessive heat loss. Removable reflector sheets under the mattresses are lightweight, cheap, and pretty darn effective at keeping you warm. Costs less than heated mattresses, too.
 
12.) 12-volt cigarette style receptacles hooked up to the battery system, standard. While they're at it, make an inverter an option so the AC plugs can still work while on battery power. Fully educate consumers about the risks and limitations of this type of system.
 
13.) Ditch the white linoleum. It shows dirt in 5 minutes.
 
14.) Quick release propane tanks.
 
15.) Swing away tongue, like Trailmanor. Most of us can fit our popups in our garage, but another two feet would be welcome! Some have bought smaller popups because they didn't have another two feet.
 
16.) I would personally like a pop-up sink. I know I would lose cabinet space, but I can't access the storage aisle in my popup when popped down because my sink blocks it. Also, the swing-down galleys block storage space. Either way, there's a sacrifice, and I'm willing to concede permanent cabinet storage to gain access to my center aisle for storage while traveling.
 
17.) 10-foot slideout with cassete potty shower.
 
I don't think most of my suggestions add that much weight or cost to a popup. Finally, I think it's a mistake to focus the popup market on the higher end models to compete with hybrids and travel trailers. That approach isn't what made popups successful in the 1970s. My suggestions appear to conflict with that simplistic approach, but my point is that functionality can be improved while remaining simple.

[luvourjayco]

A Canadian View point. They are losing a lot of market because they are not looking at how these units are actually used. In our provincial park system water hook ups are not available but its a PITA to refill the system using jugs which is how you have to do it.  A standard collection system for grey water would be nice. Realistically environmental laws are getting tougher everywhere and we can do our part too! A hot water shower system in a 10' box would be more practical for a usual family of 4 instead of forcing us to go to the bigger heavier models and therefore the bigger tow vehicles (again environmental issues as these vehicles only tow a very minor part of the year). Two queen beds instead of the double/king combo would be helpful also, this again in reference to family issues my 2 preteen girls cannot share that double bunk its just too small. Awnings that are more user friendly... it takes 2 to deploy most of them out there now.
Hope some of this helps.

[OnTheGround]

As you know I'm new here and have never owned a trailer. I've been camping on the ground in a tent for years and already have a lot of camping equipment, most of which is in great condition.

I've been looking at trailers for 2 months now. I've seen new & used, big and small, some with everything, some even nicer than my house.

Here's what I'm looking for -

Something simple to pull with my small pickup or my wife's minivan.
Simple to manuver around a campsite and setup.
Something that is big enough to stand in (I'm 5'10).
I want a tent doesn't leak and windows with screens & flaps.
I want an electric hook up for private campgrounds and a big battery with solar charging for remote camping.
I want a water hook up for campgrounds and a 15-20 gallon tank for remote camping.
I want something that I won't feel bad about getting dirty.
I want to pay less than $5000

Here is what I'm not looking for-
A microwave, gold trim or designer curtains.
The fabric doesn't need to compete with motorhomes. I prefer the Field & Stream look over the Better Homes and Gardens, at least when camping.

Let me know if you see anything in Louisville that fits my bill.

Dan

[MtnCamper]

Florescent light throughout, especially over the table and the galley!
They are less hungry than the bulbs, and provide a white light. Even skip the fluorescents, just a light above the sink and stove......

[SactoCampers]

Florescent light throughout, especially over the table and the galley!
They are less hungry than the bulbs, and provide a white light. Even skip the fluorescents, just a light above the sink and stove......

Yes! Flourescent lights!

[B-flat]

I want a self-cleaning, self-setup unit with programmable controls.   Just kidding.  My wish list would be for a light decor but one that doesn't show dirt immediately, thermostat controls that are easier to read without having to get out the magnifying glass to see the setting. Potty shower in the smaller models (somehow), better builtin drawer storage and shelving. Insulation on the bunk ends,Mildew resistant bunkend covers, and something that doesn't cost as much as a Travel Trailer or Hybrid.

[Gone-Camping]

Sounds like most of it was covered above.
 
One thing I didn't see and think many us of would love to have, is an outside sink with hot & cold taps, and a drain back to the gray tank. Many of us prefer to cook outside, and as such, most of also would rather clean up outside too. Plus having water & sink while cooking out there is helpful. This could be something that simply folds into/out of the side of the trailer. My outside shower sort of works, but doesn't have a sink, no drain, and is on the wrong side of the trailer.

 
(On edit: I do belive the Rockwood Premier Series PU had a sink/stove combo that slid in/out of the trailer)
 
Someone else mentioned the reflective solar covers. Why do we need to go out and buy these seperately? Seems to me the PU and Hybrid makers are in this for a profit, why not make this an add-on option for extra cost? I'm sure they could come up with an even better system that the 2 or 3 that are out there now.
 
Mattress is the primary thing that turned me off on my PU's, and even on my current Hybrid. I've got a 2004 trailer, but I'm sleeping on an air mattress.
 
Rockwood PU's have at least used the inner spring mattress with mattress heaters, that's definately a step in the right direction.

[Ab Diver]

Ok, trying to keep it to realistic, actually "do-able" ideas, and not my list of "dream" ideas...
 
I would LOVE some form of "component" cabinetry. Think about it... the basic *box* could be configured for each trip. Need a cabinet for dishes, or want a gaucho for more sleeping area? Want the dinette on one side, or as a u-dinette on the end? And that dang door that's on the wrong side at most State campgrounds cuz the camp sites were designed  fifty years ago? Move it to the other side of the box, insert the removable lower wall section into the door's previous location, zip in the upper wall section and.... Presto! the door is on the other side. (the component cabinetry makes this kind of switch possible since the cabinet that was in the way can now be moved)
 
If you are going to have a slide-out, make it larger than just the dinette. The Jayco 14SO is a terrific example of this, and the front runner for our next pop-up. If no slide-out, the component interior would allow us to configure the trailer to suite our needs, even while at the campsite (removable camp kitchen?)
 
I think interior adaptability would be a major selling point, and something not available in hybrids or lower priced travel trailers. The key is to offer something not found in the pop-up's similarly priced RV competition.
 
A high pressure automatic switchover regulator for dual tank set-ups so the outside stove can be used on both tanks, or a dual-pressure stove, as already noted.
 
A TRANSFERABLE WARRANTY TO SECOND OWNERS FOR STRUCTURAL COMPONENTS OF THE TRAILER.
 
Let me repeat that: A TRANSFERABLE WARRANTY TO SECOND OWNERS FOR STRUCTURAL COMPONENTS OF THE TRAILER. This will protect our resale value and encourage us to stay with the same manufacturer on our next RV. And there *will* be a next one, trust us. (Sorry, Dave... but I couldn't resist the warranty thing)
 
Tires that are not operating at their limit, and easily replaced while on the road. Translation: ever tried to find a replacement 13", 1660 lbs. rated tire in Smalltown, USA?
 
The ability to "zip in" flexible insulation on the bunk ends. Kind of like adding a layer of Thinsulate or Reflectix for cold weather. Maybe a "zip off" bunk roof, leaving only a screen above the bunk. Great for summer sleeping under the stars.
 
A sink drain that works first time, every time. Gimmee a break, a drain is dead simple, and gravity operated. It shouldn't take tweaking and modification by the owner to make it work properly.
 
Stuff that doesn't rattle loose or break just from using it. If you are going to brag about employee craftsmanship or Amish workers making your trailer, remember that Amish furniture is built last *generations*, not months.
 
A free-standing "E-Z-UP" type of screen/add-a room that can mate to the side of the trailer, or be moved to cover a picnic table. Best of both worlds this way.
 
Real, live, honest-to-gosh manufacturer participation at PUT. Let us know you are listening, or at least give us your ear. To date, only a couple manufactures that I know of have done this. They are to be commended for doing so.
 
Ok, there's a good start. When you've got all those taken care of, I'll submit the Secondary List.
 
Dave, Thanks for giving us this opportunity.

[NightOwl]

Dave, much as we love our TM, we are thanking of keeping it semi-permanently  at some nearby mountain property we own and going back to a PU for travel-type camping!

One thing you are dealing with here (and you already  alluded to it) is what we want of a popup today.  Currently, there seem to be two major markets for popups.   Are they  to be used  for  a "resort" type vacation or for camping?  If they are entry level RV's then what happens to the price when so many  features are added?

  I think back to our old  66 or 67 Skamper.  It was built like a Sherman tank, had very few amenities (gas furnace, small sink,  small freshwater tank, ice box and one or two electric plugs.)  But it had a 13' box with dinettes at each end and huge storage bins.  The window zippers were huge and never gave us a problem.  The large windows themselves had HEAvy clear vinyl zip-up windows in addition to the canvas ones.  The canvas was some kind of heavily coated vinyl that NEVER LEAKED.  As I look back, I realize we probably abused the thing, yet nothing ever broke.

We covered thousands of miles in it ( four cross-country trips plus many shorter ones and lot of trips Michigan to  Georgia and back) pulled behind our station wagons. Once we took 4 teen-age girls and 3 Yorkshire terriers with us  on a 5 week trip Michigan to Montana.  NO glitz!    Now, it seems there is a lot of glitz and at some of the camper shows, the campers  seem  more  flimsy, more like a shiny kids' playhouse.

STURDY.  That's what I would like to see.

I realize manufacturers are in a tough spot--Travel Trailers are cheap--often as cheap as a PU or cheaper now, and fold-down customers keep asking for more and more bells and whistles.  They want lots of conveniences and luxuries, and all on a  light weight, easy-to-use and economical-to-pull wagon-bed which needs to be well-built and sturdy.  And  it is kind of like the old saying about not being able to please all the people all the time--it probably cannot be done in real life.

New technologies and new "space age"  materials are going to make the future of entry-level RV"s very interesting for all of us.  I hope to see a long report from you when you get back telling us of the exciting new things going on in the industry and the direction  popups are  taking.

[wssfetch]

Dave,

I think people who are looking at pop-ups for the first time are generally going to fall into three groups:

1.  Tent campers and others who want to get up off the ground and still CAMP instead of staying in a hotel room on wheels.
2.  First time rv buyers who cannot afford a trailer that costs m ore than their tow vehicle
3.  Families who want to tow their camper with a mini-van or smaller suv.

Manufacturers need to make quality, reasonably priced units with many available option packages that can be purchased separately and easily installed.  Components similar to what you would see on a car dash or on a computer CPU.  Prewire, preplumb.  

The biggest reason why many people do not even consider a pop-up is the set up and take down.  Make that as simple as posible.  I like the higher side pop-up that does not require galley flip over or pull down.  

Built in sound systems and microwaves plus oven only raise the price.  We're camping!  Do we need a built in sound system?  What happened to a good old fashioned battery operated radio?  While I think longingly about an oven in a pop-up, I also wonder just how often I would really use it.  Ditch the oven, keep the microwave.  

I think one of the real problems with pop-up sales is that people are led to believe that they need something bigger and more upscale and that anything else is slumming.  We are a nation of extravagent consumers who are never content with what we have that fills our needs but are always longing for what we WANT whether we need it or not.

[MtnCamper]

We are a nation of extravagent consumers who are never content with what we have that fills our needs but are always longing for what we WANT whether we need it or not.

Boy isn't that the truth!

[NightOwl]

Dave,

I think people who are looking at pop-ups for the first time are generally going to fall into three groups:

1.  Tent campers and others who want to get up off the ground and still CAMP instead of staying in a hotel room on wheels.
2.  First time rv buyers who cannot afford a trailer that costs m ore than their tow vehicle
3.  Families who want to tow their camper with a mini-van or smaller suv.


Built in sound systems and microwaves plus oven only raise the price.  We're camping!  Do we need a built in sound system?  What happened to a good old fashioned battery operated radio?  While I think longingly about an oven in a pop-up, I also wonder just how often I would really use it.  Ditch the oven, keep the microwave.  

I think one of the real problems with pop-up sales is that people are led to believe that they need something bigger and more upscale and that anything else is slumming.  We are a nation of extravagent consumers who are never content with what we have that fills our needs but are always longing for what we WANT whether we need it or not.

Wow--there are so many good ideas here coming from members and the statements by WSF  (above) and loveourjayco and OnTheGround and others could  easily have come from me and my DH.

I made out  just fine camping numerous times with kids, dogs, and devoted flyfisherman for over ten years in our Skamper with a little 3 burner gas stove and my Coleman Stove and gasoline lantern and folding oven, and we ate meals ANYONE would be delighted to share in!  We were CAMPING not--as others have put it so well--staying in a hotel room on wheels.  We like all the bells and whistles on the TM including the  oven & hardsided  bathroom, but we will NOT be looking for those features in our next popup.  We are interested in "camping!" and not in something made with that fake wood with hinges and brackets that break at a  touch like others have experinced now and then on the board. I hope someone will  consider making something basic but sturdy  again because there sure doesnt seem to be anything out there like that now--at least not that I have heard of yet.

PS--some people want and need all those conveniences, and their desires and needs should be respected and accommodated; it is just that we are at a different stage of  life in our family and are looking for simplicity once more.  :W

( I also recognize the fact that DH and I, in our needs just now, are part of a tiny minority and that manufacturers must make what sells most readily. I dont fault them for that at all for doing what gives them good market share