Jobs Moving Overseas--this really bothers me!

[wynot]

My former employer sent their first line customer support to India - it came back from there after they received too many complaints on understanding.  It wasn't that the Indian support reps weren't competent - it was literally a language barrier - especially when heavy Southern accents met Indian English.  Delays understanding each other when irate customers are standing in line, doesn't do well for merchant support or retention.

Another company I used to work for used to love to contract Indian workers.  This is the 20/21st Century version of indentured servants.  These companies would come in to India, pull the brightest Indian students, get them into American colleges and then use them as contracted employees.
 
What would happen is that 4-6 Indians would live together in a one or two bedroom place, they would be told to keep their nose clean or they would send them back to India.  These folks would always drive a Honda (I can honestly say I have never seen a Indian contractor drive anything but a Honda), they would jam 4 or 5 folks into this car and go to work.  They would be there - quiet as ye olde church mouse - and they would work.  Eat next to nothing and take no breaks.  Pretty much anything they earned went right back to India.  They had these folks so terrified that they would be deported, it was hard to even talk to them.  Salary numbers at the time bought 4 Indians for 1 American.
 
When I was laid off from the above company - along with 40,000 others at the same time - that year, the CEO made a bonus of $6.4 million because of his solid leadership.  I'm sorry, but ANY company who lays off, should NOT be giving a bonus to any CEO, because THEY screwed up.
My perspective may be a little different, because I have been the 'foreigner' living overseas.  Not always fun.  I heard an absolute pipe dream the other day on the radio - some business owner was defending his choice to export his low paying positions to India & Pakistan because he wanted to increase his business share and hire back in American workers with the increased business.  Sounds to me like he is wrestling with his conscience...

[rajones315]

I think some of us are missing the point here.

In the military, we had a saying that always remember that the weapons we fire, the jets we fly and everything else was made by the lowest bidder.

Guys we're talking about business here.  It's an employers job to run his business in the most efficient cost effective manner.  Let's face it, with high US taxes, higher US paid wages, higher US utilities, it makes sense to move your operations to someplace where you can lower your overhead.

He's not in business to make employees happy.  He's in business to make himself money.  The point here is in the long run we're all numbers on a page.  Either in a plus or a minus column.  The bosses aren't making it a personal decision.  The employees are making it personal, because they are angry and upset (Kind of understandable) but my point is, get over it.  Life goes on and instead of wallowing in it caring a pail of spit & anger for foreign workers use this opportunity to grow as a person.  Learn new skills - get a better job and go on with your life.

If you spent your entire career doing only your job and never took advantage of benefits like free or low cost education, then awe shucks on you.  You've been living your life with blinders on because you think your company owes you anything beyond your paycheck.  Our loyalty should be to our own bottom line, because in the end that's all we have.

I'm sorry this all sounds harsh, but we really need to blame ourselves here if we loose our job and we're not ready for it.  A simple idea to live by is plan for the worst, but hope for the best.

Just an FYI about me.  I'm not an Employer.  I'm an employee, but my company pays up to $5500/year for education.  Guess what I'm doing?  Not sitting on my laurels waiting for the other shoe to drop.

Regards,
Bob Jones

[whitestar505]

Hi All,

 
   If you are interrested in buying American, you might be interrested in this site.
 
 
http://www.hireamerica.us/companies.php

[Jim in Michigan]

Maybe I'd be more sympathetic toward these companies hiring cheap foreign workers if I EVER heard of a CEO pulling down 40 or 50 million or more say, "well, workers are taking pay cuts so maybe I ought to take one  as well. "

I have seen this happen.  In 2002 when Ford hit a wall and had to cut bonuses and other benefits to its hourly and salaried workforce, CEO Bill Ford cut his pay to $1 with no bonus and option awards.  He also eliminated merit increases, bonuses and stock options to the top level management in the company (middle management on up).  In 2003, he did the same thing although economics improved and Ford made a profit.  In 2004, he recieved a stock option award for profits earned in 2003 of about $1.5M.  He is setting up a tuition fund for the children of Ford employees with that money.  Ford is paying bonuses and stock options to managment this year.  

I believe Lee Iacoccia did a similar thing in the 80's when Chrysler was in the tank.

You can argue that these people had all the money they will ever need and this was a token gesture but you could probably say that for all Fortune 500 CEOs.

Anyway, there are instances where CEOs take pay cuts in bad times.  Also remember most compensation you see in the media regarding CEOs is largely in the form of stock options that can only be realiized 3-10 years down the road.  If the company stock goes down, all that $50-$60M salaries you see go down with it.  The Internet bust a few years ago turned alot of would be multi-millionaires into paupers.

[birol]

I think you need to "re-think" & "re-read" what you typed ....

If, everyone do not take responsibility to make sure their country does prosper guess who will suffer at the end .....

As for sitting on our behinds and not taking advantage of oppotunities, try taking advantage of training opportunities when your job keeps you in another country 5 days a week where you work from 7 am till 12 am because you deal with a third country with a 14 hour time difference.

Yeah, a little bit too harsh ! Not all of us are waiting for a handout and just waiting to be pampered.

Not ready for it ? I don't know, I lost my job 2.5 years ago, and didn't turn to  alcohol or drugs, didn't get a divorce, managed to purchase a small house, and still surviving. Will you be able to do the same when it hits you ? Are you sure ?

Sometime a bigger perspective in life is all we need. Not everything we saw until now is all there is to it.

I think some of us are missing the point here.

In the military, we had a saying that always remember that the weapons we fire, the jets we fly and everything else was made by the lowest bidder.

Guys we're talking about business here.  It's an employers job to run his business in the most efficient cost effective manner.  Let's face it, with high US taxes, higher US paid wages, higher US utilities, it makes sense to move your operations to someplace where you can lower your overhead.

He's not in business to make employees happy.  He's in business to make himself money.  The point here is in the long run we're all numbers on a page.  Either in a plus or a minus column.  The bosses aren't making it a personal decision.  The employees are making it personal, because they are angry and upset (Kind of understandable) but my point is, get over it.  Life goes on and instead of wallowing in it caring a pail of spit & anger for foreign workers use this opportunity to grow as a person.  Learn new skills - get a better job and go on with your life.

If you spent your entire career doing only your job and never took advantage of benefits like free or low cost education, then awe shucks on you.  You've been living your life with blinders on because you think your company owes you anything beyond your paycheck.  Our loyalty should be to our own bottom line, because in the end that's all we have.

I'm sorry this all sounds harsh, but we really need to blame ourselves here if we loose our job and we're not ready for it.  A simple idea to live by is plan for the worst, but hope for the best.

Just an FYI about me.  I'm not an Employer.  I'm an employee, but my company pays up to $5500/year for education.  Guess what I'm doing?  Not sitting on my laurels waiting for the other shoe to drop.

Regards,
Bob Jones

[birol]

I remember seeing our CEO caching in his stock options worth 165 million dollars while I was flying to Cleveland one morning. The shares were 126 bucks a piece. I told myself, this is not good !!!! Yeah he later stepped down and got his pension and bonus and all, after shares had hit 5 bucks and 60,000 people were laid off ! I have no idea why I got laid off while he got his pension, and kept his bonus and stock options ! Obviously I was single handedly responsible for Nortel Networks failure  :Z  :J

I have seen this happen.  In 2002 when Ford hit a wall and had to cut bonuses and other benefits to its hourly and salaried workforce, CEO Bill Ford cut his pay to $1 with no bonus and option awards.  He also eliminated merit increases, bonuses and stock options to the top level management in the company (middle management on up).  In 2003, he did the same thing although economics improved and Ford made a profit.  In 2004, he recieved a stock option award for profits earned in 2003 of about $1.5M.  He is setting up a tuition fund for the children of Ford employees with that money.  Ford is paying bonuses and stock options to managment this year.  

I believe Lee Iacoccia did a similar thing in the 80's when Chrysler was in the tank.

You can argue that these people had all the money they will ever need and this was a token gesture but you could probably say that for all Fortune 500 CEOs.

Anyway, there are instances where CEOs take pay cuts in bad times.  Also remember most compensation you see in the media regarding CEOs is largely in the form of stock options that can only be realiized 3-10 years down the road.  If the company stock goes down, all that $50-$60M salaries you see go down with it.  The Internet bust a few years ago turned alot of would be multi-millionaires into paupers.

[Jim in Michigan]

The media never reports this right.  They report someone cashed in $165M in stock options.  What they don't report is the option price.  If the stock was at 126 then he had roughly accumulated 1.3M options that he could cash in over the years at various prices.  Usually options are set up so that the person receiving them has between 3-10 years to exercise their options.  As a simple example say all of his options were set at $100 per share, he would receive (126-100)*1.3M = $34M.  Hefty sums I know but not $165M.  If he had 1.3M options at a stock price of 127 then they would be worthless at 126.  Thats how boards try to make CEOs see the long term picture for the company.  If the CEO was artificially driving up the stock prices to get a high option payoff at the detriment to the future then shame on the board for not firing him sooner.  

As for pensions and bonuses, I can't speak for the bonus but he earned his pension and probably paid into it and was deserving of it, just like you were when you were laid off.  If I quit or am laid off from my company today, I will still get a pension from them when I retire.

[birol]

Of course you have a point, the amount he has to pay to purchase the stock options to the company is never mentioned. Not to be vindictive, but, we were getting our stock options, and could exercise them after ten years, so I am assuming he had to do the same (I know not necessearily), stock options  for Nortel were no where near that amount in 1991 ... So he still got a hefty sum

You yankee friends actually have a class action (I think) law suit against him for not informing the public about the financial situation of company or misleading the public or something like that. All the Canadians who lost all their savings should join that law suit or get their own going !.

Me, I had nothing invested yet, lost about 3,000+ stock options worthless at 110+ dollars each ..... Should have bought some stock when the shares went down to .65 cents ! Just didn't have the money

The media never reports this right.  They report someone cashed in $165M in stock options.  What they don't report is the option price.  If the stock was at 126 then he had roughly accumulated 1.3M options that he could cash in over the years at various prices.  Usually options are set up so that the person receiving them has between 3-10 years to exercise their options.  As a simple example say all of his options were set at $100 per share, he would receive (126-100)*1.3M = $34M.  Hefty sums I know but not $165M.  If he had 1.3M options at a stock price of 127 then they would be worthless at 126.  Thats how boards try to make CEOs see the long term picture for the company.  If the CEO was artificially driving up the stock prices to get a high option payoff at the detriment to the future then shame on the board for not firing him sooner.  

As for pensions and bonuses, I can't speak for the bonus but he earned his pension and probably paid into it and was deserving of it, just like you were when you were laid off.  If I quit or am laid off from my company today, I will still get a pension from them when I retire.

[Jim in Michigan]

...when people start railing on the CEOs of companies when they hear about these ridiculous salaries and begin calling them all a bunch of money mongering crooks.  The media just feeds off of that frenzy and it is all just bogus.  The CEOs are employed by the company just like everyone else, they just have the most power to influence things.  If they do illegal things such as Enron or Martha Stewart then they should be found out and punished appropriately.  Otherwise, blame the nameless, faceless board of directors who hires the CEO and sets compensation for not only the CEO but everyone.  They are elected by the shareholders who in the end have no one to blame but themselves when everything goes wrong.

So many people think CEOs are like owners and take whatever money they want out of the company when in fact everything they are paid and everything they do is accountable to the board and ultimately the shareholders.

[garym053]

I was not going to weigh in on this thread as I have some really strong opinions on this subject and some of the responses, but I couldn't resist!

First of all, Greed is greed, whether you are the employer or the employee! CEO's don't need to make millions, (of course neither do those sports figures we ALL subsidize, or those musicians or actors & actresses!) but employees and their unions shouldn't be constantly demanding more from companies that are being drained by competition.

Secondly, I seriously doubt that all our jobs were ONLY exported during the Regan and Bush years. I believe NAFTA was done during Clinton. I also believe that the restructuring of Bonds and debt done during the Clinton years to make really good SHORT term paybacks at the expense of LONG term is now biting us in the butt!

We, as consumers put price first, hence the Walmarting and Home Depoting of America. Why shouldn't companies do the same? We drive past our locally owned business because we percieve that Walmart has lower prices. However the local business keeps its' profits in the community, usually supplies at least some affordable health care to its employees, and pays far more in local taxes simply because they didn't negotiate a propert tax abatement just to set up business in your communities. Walmart reportedly offers Health care to its full time employees but then keeps their hours at 32 to 35 per week (whatever the legal amount is for full time in that state) so that the employees can't afford their share of the insurance!

Finally, do you know what businesses employe the vast majority of Americans? Small Business! Those with under 500 employees. However, small businesses have to pay too when people get it into their heads that all business owners are rich and should be taxed to death!

I am a Controller and Business Manager for a 4 location Ace Hardware & Building Materials and a Kitchen Design Store. I have never seen an employee laid off except when we wanted to fire them but didn't want to cause them the trauma that firing brings to a person. We have gone through plenty of downturns in the years I've been with the company. In those downturns it was the CEO and the President who took pay cuts. They even loaned the business money out of their pension plans, insurances, etc so that we could meet payrolls. They have never asked a manager or employee to take a pay cut. AND I don't think that they are unique! I bet 95% of the businesses are that way. It's the 5% that includes Enron, Worldcom, Adelphi, etc that twist everyone's mind into thinking that all business owners, CEO's or Presidents are bad!

I feel very badly for the people who have lost their jobs. Here in Vermont, we have job retraining in place at the state level. Does it work? I don't know. If you can believe the news and other media (which I usually doubt!) they say it works wonderfully. I'll form my own opinion after I've talked with someone who has gone through it! It truly has become a global economy and we are in the process of finding out where we fit in. I believe we will find out.

Okay, off my rant now, back to dreams of camping!!!

[AustinBoston]

I think some of us are missing the point here.

In the military, we had a saying that always remember that the weapons we fire, the jets we fly and everything else was made by the lowest bidder.

Guys we're talking about business here.  It's an employers job to run his business in the most efficient cost effective manner.  Let's face it, with high US taxes, higher US paid wages, higher US utilities, it makes sense to move your operations to someplace where you can lower your overhead.

He's not in business to make employees happy.  He's in business to make himself money.  The point here is in the long run we're all numbers on a page.  Either in a plus or a minus column.  The bosses aren't making it a personal decision.  The employees are making it personal, because they are angry and upset (Kind of understandable) but my point is, get over it.  Life goes on and instead of wallowing in it caring a pail of spit & anger for foreign workers use this opportunity to grow as a person.  Learn new skills - get a better job and go on with your life.

If you spent your entire career doing only your job and never took advantage of benefits like free or low cost education, then awe shucks on you.  You've been living your life with blinders on because you think your company owes you anything beyond your paycheck.  Our loyalty should be to our own bottom line, because in the end that's all we have.

I'm sorry this all sounds harsh, but we really need to blame ourselves here if we loose our job and we're not ready for it.  A simple idea to live by is plan for the worst, but hope for the best.

Just an FYI about me.  I'm not an Employer.  I'm an employee, but my company pays up to $5500/year for education.  Guess what I'm doing?  Not sitting on my laurels waiting for the other shoe to drop.

Regards,
Bob Jones

This is an interesting point of view, but it is not borne out in fact.  There is a strong correlation between a company's use of US labor and it's long-term profitability.  It is easy to save a quick buck by shipping labor overseas, but it is impossible to build a better company that way.  Building a better business is what management is supposed to be about.  Lately, it's about cutting costs at all costs.

Businesses that use all US labor (or mostly US labor) for 5 years running are consistently more profitable than those who shipped the work overseas 5 or more years ago, I believe on the order of 2-to-1.  The reason is that they view and treat their workers (especially skilled workers, which nearly all of us are) as their greatest asset, not their cheapest commodity.

If it were a matter of US wages competing with foreign wages, then the US workers should be given the chance to compete.  But they aren't.  One day, management walks in, says your job is going to Blabberstan and your last day is on the 31st.  End of story.

Faced with that, very few Americans would not be willing to make consessions.  Many others would be willing to do what they could to buy out the company.  But those are not options that are presented, because even though they would be very productive in the long run, nobody in management wants to wait past the next quarterly statement.

Austin

[whitestar505]

Funny thing about all this is we are the one's buying all this off shore junk. Every time we go to Walmart. We more or less approve!

[NightOwl]

well, Whitestar, I am SO GLAD you agree with us (see some of th earlier  comments about the matter of  Americans buying FOREIGN MADE products in our previous posts)  

But whether members here agree with all (or ANY) of the previous remarks in this thread, at least people are THINKING about these things!

[birol]

Nothing is wrong buying stuff made in other countries (generally speaking) , but something is wrong when American (Canadian) companies get things manufactured at 1/3 the cost in another country, lay off almost all of their employees, and expect to sell the cheaply produced (I am not implying less quality, that is something I won't discuss) item at the sameold high price which used to cost a lot higher to produce, to the people they laid off !

This is profiting at the cost of people of this country, and only produces a few rich people ...........  

This is the way I see it ... yeah I guess capitalism works this way ..... And when people are too poor to buy the stuff at inflated prices, they will bring the the prices down to earth ... which will only allow them to make the same old profit they used to make when they employed their own people. Now they have to deal with importing the stuff they produced abroad, and the cost of dealing with foreign employees and import/transportation becomes an issue. And do they bring the jobs back ? After all it is cost cutting at any cost, and transportation and and customs etc will surely be the biggest part of the cost.

Maybe this is just the way things are .... Whatever works in the short term ....

[whitestar505]

birol,

I agree with you in most parts, one problem, mostly all of the other countries governments provide funding to there industries or some sort of kick back. An industry that is partly funded by government can sell good quality products at a lot lower cost than the US. One that really hurts us is the gouging the customer on the price of a product. For example, take a product that sells for 25 dollars in one store and you find in another for $12.50. You know they have to make a profit, but do they have to make a killing? So my thought is that it starts with us. If don't buy the products of companies that are allowing this to happen it may stop.

Nothing is wrong buying stuff made in other countries (generally speaking) , but something is wrong when American (Canadian) companies get things manufactured at 1/3 the cost in another country, lay off almost all of their employees, and expect to sell the cheaply produced (I am not implying less quality, that is something I won't discuss) item at the sameold high price which used to cost a lot higher to produce, to the people they laid off !
 
This is profiting at the cost of people of this country, and only produces a few rich people ...........
 
This is the way I see it ... yeah I guess capitalism works this way ..... And when people are too poor to buy the stuff at inflated prices, they will bring the the prices down to earth ... which will only allow them to make the same old profit they used to make when they employed their own people. Now they have to deal with importing the stuff they produced abroad, and the cost of dealing with foreign employees and import/transportation becomes an issue. And do they bring the jobs back ? After all it is cost cutting at any cost, and transportation and and customs etc will surely be the biggest part of the cost.
 
Maybe this is just the way things are .... Whatever works in the short term ....