Jobs Moving Overseas--this really bothers me!

[NightOwl]

Before you read further--I like to think I am not a bigot no matter what someone's color, religion, place of origin, or private life choices.  This includes people from ANY place EXCEPT when I feel they are participating in the stealing of jobs from Americans.

And companies know this--so guess what?   They are now giving these foreign workers ALL-AMERICAN names.  I forgot to pay my Macy's bill  for Jan that came in February and mailed a check finally about 10 days ago.    Well, Friday evening I got a call from a gentleman who identified himself as "John  Murray" and who informed me very courteously that my bill was overdue.  Now, he clearly had an accent which indicated to me that his REAL name could ONLY be  something like Sanjay Patel.  

So, Mr Patel and I  had this very polite conversation and I said I had paid the  total balance due and  I'd call my bank today to see if the check had come in and call back and let them know what I had found out.  MInd you, he was plesant and competent in every way.  Today, I called back and THIS time I got to speak to "Mr. Patel's cousin" who told me his name is  name is David  Andrews (also extremely courteous and helpful.) We conducted our business very pleasantly and before we hung up,  I almost asked him, "So--DAVID--just how is the weather in Bombay today?"


Yes, I know--I am being hateful to feel this way about someone only doing his job (and doing it well)  but I resent EVERY SINGLE JOB  being sent from this country to other places--I dont give a damn if it is Ireland, India, Norway--the land of my ancestors--or Timbuktu--it is not right for Amemrican companies--HELLO, MACY'S--to  hire people in other countries and take jobs from CITIZENS living HERE and paying taxes HERE and  trying to raise their families  HERE.

Please don't anyone here  give me any crap about how many hundreds of thousands of  jobs are available in this country if only people werent too lazy to take them.  Just tell me--do any of YOU know someone able to raise their family on what they get paid for working at MacDonald's or  the local gas station or pushing baskarts at the local supermarket?   COULD YOU??   Lou Dobbs says these exported jobs formerly filled by  well-trained Americans in the info-tech and electronics industries  ARE NEVER COMING BACK!  They are gone forever and will NOT be replaced by OTHER  jobs with good pay and decent benefits.  

When we lived in Michigan, we knew auto workers who worked faithfully for their companies all their lives, bought homes, had 2 decent cars, and even sent their kids to college before they retired and went fishing.  There were factory workers  in other industries who did the same.  Not now.  Many of their employers  are moving their factories overseas and hiring people for much less.  I understand that companies must make a profit,and I suppport this, but, if this keeps up--some day people here will no longer be able to buy ANYTHING made by "foreign workers" for these same  "American" companies and--then what?  Our foreign trade deficit is hideous and growing daily.  When will we collapse economically totally?

In all fairness, I must mention that there are economic experts who also say that the outsourcing of jobs is only bad in the short run and that in 20 or 30 years there will be MANY other excellent jobs created by technology which will provide employment for US workers.  but--what about those displaced in the meantime?

 
CRASH!  (that's the sound of a very upset NightOwl falling off her soapbox.   )

[NightOwl]

what an irony.  I am a HUGE part of the very thing I complain about here. And so are 99% of you.  Last week I went into Wal-Mart and found some adorable sleeveless summer T-shirts.  Nice, beefy   100% cotton.   Really well made  and manufactured in the PHilipines.  $5.00 apiece.  I bought two.  This is just an example of what I do all the time and so do we all.  Without giving it a thought, we are saving money on things like this and rapidly screwing our country into the ground economically    :Z

what to do?

[birol]

An international company with 60,000 customers is setting up a Call Center in Turkey. I was invited to join them, maybe I should just go there and get a real job

I think the greed shown by the companies is going to bite them back ! Sooner or later !  Don't ask me how, why, when. All I know is when bounds of reason is bent too much in any direction, it bounces back with a fierce force.

How do you guys like bvuying American flags made in Communist China ? In Turkey, no one would even think about having them produced outside the country ! No one would buy them and there would be a big protest going on in no time.

[jpreiser]

Wow, I do how ever know people from both india, Turkey and Persia, there parents have Heavy accents, so of course they do also, they were born here... and were given American names.. Maybe to fit in better, possibly so they would not be made fun of, or harrased in school, jobs, on the phone, etc. I dont feel like "they" are taking "our" jobs. I do know that many people from some
countrys will works 2 or more jobs for much less pay then most would consider. I have found that alot of people would rather collect from the state then get a second job.Some of "us" will even have"  Extras" like boats, campers, moter cycles, computers,  etc. But no jobs,... Maybe if they saved a little or sold the "extras" they would have some money to fall back on if they lost there job...

Many people send money back to their home country, to help out their family  this is great. Most of "us" give money to our family and then complain  if we do not get it back!! (Crazy I think)..

Alot of people on this board are or have family from other countries, that is what makes everyone diffrent.. People say.."I am a red blooded American" Well that is fine but everyone has the same color blood regardless of where they come from, what accent they have, or what color skin they have....We are all they same on the inside and thats what counts....

[DiW]

My DH is a victim of this outsourcing but that's life so we're trying to deal with it. Years ago, he worked on a very large computer application here in USA. Then, the Am insurance co realized they could have the system maintained in India for much less $. My DH worked as a liason between the 2 groups. He considered himself lucky to have a job. Not sure if the Am company actually saved that much $ since there were "communication" problems and such that ate up time and time is $.

Then the Am co hired IBM to maintain the system here in the USA. My DH went with the project to IBM. All was well at that point but I will say that the American salaries were constantly climbing and maybe higher than justified. Like many companies at this time, IBM decided it had to cut ever escalating costs and downsized my DH and about 200 people out of his division. The system was moved to Ireland where labor is cheaper.

After a year out of work, my DH finally found another job, but not in IT. That lasted a year until another downsizing. So here he is again facing the same situation. I don't really blame the Am companies from trying to cut costs but they need to stand back and take another look at the situation and see if they can achieve their goals without screwing over the American worker.

A company in the Boston area recognized the situation for what it is and said, we can outsource for 1/2 the cost. How about we offer the same jobs to Americans and see if they'll do the work for the same pay? To their surprise, they had more applicants than they could handle. According to the news, they have been successful in hiring US workers to do these jobs that had been slated for overseas. The downside is the Am worker is working for 1/2 the pay but living in America where the cost of living is higher than overseas. But the alternative is the Am worker would be out of a job. In my DH's case, he just wants to do the work he's been trained to do. He, like the workers in Boston, is willing to work for less (and hopefully negotiate more vacation time   ). He was lucky enough to get called back for a second interview this week so now he waits to see if the co is willing to take a chance on him. Although my DH said he'd be willing to work for the salary they were offering, they said they're leery. They're afraid he'll be dissatified in the long run. We'll see...
Diane

[NightOwl]

jpr--I'd LIKE to believe these people ARE living in America just like you say, but  still have strong doubts.  And anyone who reads the papers or  "Time," Newsweek, or USNews and World Report or even listens to the news or watches CNN or other tv news, is  aware in FULL  detail that MANY THOUSANDS of people in India are now being employed as telephone soliciters for American credit companies, charities, banks, insurance companies,   as well as branches of various STATE AND FEDERAL GOVERNMENT OFFICES!.


Has anyone else here heard of this practice  or am I just imagining things?  

And I wonder how many members of this board have had 3 jobs at a time?  And I wonder also (even for those ONLY holding down 2 jobs to make ends meet) how much time and energy does this leave for being a good father or mother, for attending PTO meetings and taking your kids to church and to choir practice or Little League.


Maybe this guy really WAS David Andrews and his kid plays sand-lot baseball with the kids at PS39 in the Bronx.  It is not the color of his skin, his accent or his REAL name that bother me, but the fact that I KNOW he was calling me from another country and MY money is helping pay his salary.

Believe me, if all Americans could find decent jobs and there was an "employee shortage" for these companies, I'd be happy for them to get their workers wherever they could find good ones, including India.


There are good  reasons or hiring Indians of course--they generally  speak excellent English , they are usually smart and well-educated, and are courteous and THEY WORK CHEAP!    (The same might be said of MANY American citizens out of work now.  )

[Diplomat]

Can't complain about jobs going overseas, its part of our capitalistic model.  Jobs go to the lowest bidder, not any different than me shopping around for a camper.  Do you really want it any other way?  Years ago our electronic manufacturing jobs went overseas and remade Japan.  Our iron industry went overseas, our computer industry was next, and now IT and service.  No reason to spend $8000 to buy my camper from the guy next door when the guy down the street will sell it to me for $7,000 is there?  If the jobs were here can you imagine what we would have to pay for goods and services?  Of course we can always vote with your wallet and not buy from companies that have exported or outsourced jobs overseas.

Gas has been nearly $4.00 per gallon in Europe and Brazil for years, $2.00 is a bargain.  In todays dollars gasoline was close to $1.80 per gallon in 1954 IIRC, our current prices aren't so bad.  

If we want to see what happens when you close your economy look at the great success Russia or Brazil have been.

[NightOwl]

Well, Diplomat, I agree, every point you make  has merit and like you,  I DO NOT believe in isolationism. Look what it got us in the thirties.

As to the gas prices--YES, in all other countries only the rich drive large cars like most of us do here. We Americans have had cheap gas for so long and have been so contented to rely on foreign oil that we have lost touch with reality but it is about to catch up with us--at least at the pump.  

Maybe I'd be more sympathetic toward these companies hiring cheap foreign workers if I EVER heard of a CEO pulling down 40 or 50 million or more say, "well, workers are taking pay cuts so maybe I ought to take one  as well. "

But, yes, I remember hearing of a quote from an AFL president who said at contract negotiation time (strike time)  "we are going to strip the fat off this companythis time around."  Anyone who thinks "stripping" a company of its profits is a good idea is just setting up his own ruin and that's what happened eventually to the unions  in many cases.

This IS truly a "global economy" now and we cannot hide our heads in the sand, but neither can we afford to bankrupt this country  in the interests of corporate profit.  there must be a middle-ground somewhere?

[topcat7736]

Diva,

I am standing here beside myself wondering what the bombay you are talking.

Hey, maybe the Mr. Patel was really WVCamper getting even with you! LOL

Jobs? Japan once apologized for consuming huge quantities of raw materials from the USA & converting them into finished products. Take for example the lumber industry. All we get is the price of the tree. They convert it into hundreds of usable items while employing their people at the same time. So, who cares? Just send all our natural resources out of the country for a few quick $$ and let others make millions. Bush said destructive forest fires could be prevented by cutting down all the trees in national parks. I'll bet there's plenty of foreign countries drooling over getting them.

And don't think for one minute that the government cares. One of the responsibilities of the Presidents office is foreign policy. When the President wants to give aid to a foreign country, of say $1 million, we don't just send money. Instead, the President tells Congress how much aid to give and Congress orders government contractors to open plants in the country & employ their people in manufacturing items our government needs. That's how the aid is given. Under Regan, jobs were sent out of the country hand over fist never to return and why, during the time that the most money was ever spent by our government, so many Americans became unemployed. On CSPAN one night, I watched the CEO of Colt being interrogated by Senators. Seems they wanted to know how the Koreans were able to produce carbon copies of our M16 rifles & sell them on the black market. The CEO responded, "Congress ordered us to open a plant in Korea, employ their people and build the M16's there. Once obtaining the blueprints and understanding of the manufacturing processes, they openend a plant 2 miles away & used our own technology to build them".

Yep, it's always us that shoots us in the foot!  Bye jobs.  :W

[Camperroo]

I know how you feel NightOwl...however, I also never, ever answer my phone unless my caller ID tells me whose calling!!!  

American companies should have to maintain their manufacturing in the US.  When we are camping up in Maine I often pass by abandoned factory buildings, huge ones..some are turned in to apartments but I'm sure there are abandoned factories all across the country that could use these as manufacturing sources or these phone calling centers for companies.  Employers should also have to be more "American" and pay decent wages to employees so they can afford to take the more "menial" jobs and still raise a family.   But there is too the realization that there are many lazy people out there who would rather get the unemployment or welfare check than actually go out and get a job that may not be up to their "standards".  I see it all the time at work.  I get these people who want the doctor to write notes that they need their phone to stay on or electric, etc., yet they come in reaking of cigarette smoke, so you know they can afford to buy their butts and put gas in their cars to get down to the office to collect their notes and milk the electric and phone companies some more....sorry but I see that stuff and know these people and their lifestyle and it frosts me to no end.  I realize of course there are people who do need assistance, I begrudge them nothing and would help them myself, but I see the real lazy bums that I know are capable of working and instead milk every phase of the system they can, rather than actually work!!!!!

What burns me up is in our town they tax businesses the same rate as our residential rate!!!  They don't want to drive the malls out by possibly raising their taxes up higher!!  We have so many shopping centers around here and they get away with millions in tax dollars while our local schools are scrounging around to try and come up with overrides to renovate and build.  It's disgraceful.  These big businesses and malls are by no means suffering and they absolutely should not be paying the same tax rate as a homeowner!!!  Ugghhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[wiininkwe]

http://electrolux.com
 
Take a look at that web site and see all the products the company makes that we trust and use everyday.  I'm from West Michigan.  The Electrolux co was a major employer in one of the small towns near here, almost everyone in Greenville worked there.  Then they discovered that they could relocate to Mexico and pay the workers $1.57 an hour.  They pulled out and left the whole community of Greenville high and dry.   Thos folks are trying to find new jobs that will allow them to retire with some security, that will allow them to raise their families with some degree of comfort, pay for their homes and afford medical care.   It boggles my mind that we have a policy that will allow businesses to look out for the profit margin at the expense of the productive and hardworking people who make this country so great.  
I don't consider myself an Isolationist either, or a bigot, but I can't understand where the priorities of those who back big business could be.  This country will be a wasteland if these things are allowed to continue.
T
 
BTW, do you think that those products will be sold any less expensively now that they can be made more cheaply?   H*** NO!!!

[AustinBoston]

Eventually, if products manufactured elsewhere are not sold more cheaply, then they won't be sold at all.

The coming economic disaster is the opposite of the prosperity that was triggered by Henry Ford about a century ago.  Ford got prices down with the assembly line.  But that was only half the equation.  He also raised demand by paying his workers enough to be able to afford the product he was selling.  The first assembly line workers were paid several times what a typical laborer of the day was paid.

Basic economics.  Without customers, you are out of business.  Without paying wages, you have no customers.

This is OK in the context of job exports if US business can sell products to those earning the wages overseas.  But I think we're out of things to sell.  They won't be buying cars from the US, they will be buying them from Korea.  Their cell phones will come from Japan, Korea, or India.  Their computers will come from China or Japan, and the software from India or Pakistan.

Their food will come from Brazil, their fuel from Saudi Arabia, their tires from Indonesia, and their tourism dollars will go to the Caribbean, Europe, or the South Pacific.  A few will visit the Grand Canyon.

This is being driven by one thing.  Profits at any cost.  Make more than last quarter, regardless of what is necessary to do so.  The result is management that can't (or won't) try to build a better company.  Instead, it will try to raise stock prices even if it must wreck the company's long-term future to do so.  Think Enron.

A true story:  A struggling railroad hired a new CEO and told him "we want a profitable year, no matter what you have to do."  He said he could do it, and went to work.  He was quite successful, surprising even himself with his first year's profits.  He collected his huge bonus and walked away.  Of course, the railroad suddenly failed, because he made the profit by ripping up the tracks and selling the steel for scrap.

This is happening to America's businesses at an alarming rate.  Make next quarter's numbers, no matter what you have to do.  Since most companies most important asset is their employees, moving jobs overseas (particularly high-tech jobs) is ripping up the tracks to make a short-term profit.  In the end, it leads to disaster.

The solution is remarkably simple.  Require top management to put more than half of their personal investments in the company they manage, and require that they keep them there for at least three years after they leave.  Even then, they should only be able to pull out in stages.  Short term solutions that have serious long-term consequences will result in bankrupt managers.  

I would also limit top management's compensation (all forms of compensation, including those not traditionally considered "income") to no more than 20 times the lowest paid employee, no matter where in the world that emplyee is.  Many top managers would leave...only to find they face the same problem elsewhere.  Companies would be forced to pay bottom-rung employees decent wages, and would have to pull back from outrageous compensation for top managers who do not deserve what they are paid.  They simply absorb pay that was earned for the company by the employees way down the ladder who are actually doing the work.

Austin

[birol]

AB, My 15 year old son just read  your article and said "This AustinBoston guy knows what he is talking about".

I confess I agree with him !

[NightOwl]

AB, My 15 year old son just read  your article and said "This AustinBoston guy knows what he is talking about".

I confess I agree with him !

Birol, your son is very astute.  

And AB, you make good sense, as usual.  Thanks for explaining things most of us sense but cannot articulate with your  clarity.  :S  :W

[B-flat]

It's not only the jobs going overseas but the jobs that are being lost to illegal immigrants right here in this country.  Sorry Walmart, I had to get that in.....remember the story about all the illegal folks working at Walmart? These folks move in and start getting "benefits" all at our expense.  Yes, and the people who hire them are just as guilty, knowing full well they are paying these illegal immigrants.  They might be contributing to our economy by buying things but what about the money they wire back "home" which leaves this country?