Coleman Bad ABS roof

[Paul at Masthead]

Hello - This is my first post on this forum.

I have a 2000 Niagra Elite - that I bought 2 years ago I'm not the original buyer. My ABS plastic roof is cracking and delaminating over 80% of the top.

Fleetwood said since I'm not the original owner that they would not warranty it.

I was quoted around $4000.00 to $5000.00 for a new top installed....Well I'm not going pay that much for a new top.

I'm thinking about removing the "outside layer" of the Plastic and install fiberglass the top. I would use Epoxy.

Has anyone else successfully repaired or restructured one of these tops.

What have other "non-original" owner done?

Paul Silvernail
Masthead Enterprises, St. Petersburg, FL

[Tim5055]

I was quoted around $4000.00 to $5000.00 for a new top installed....Well I'm not going pay that much for a new top.

I'm thinking about removing the "outside layer" of the Plastic and install fiberglass the top. I would use Epoxy.

Sorry to hear about your problem  

4 to 5k sounds like a fairly high number.  The "rough" numbers I have heard are around $1,200 - $1,500 for the part (the top); $1,000 for shipping and $700 - $1,000 for installation - but still a great deal of money to have to spend.

The only problem I see is that it is my understanding that the roof maintains its rigidity and support from the ABS plastic shell as opposed to standard pop up roofs that have lots of wood internal supports.  I would be afraid of loosing the structural integrity without the top layer of ABS.

I would call around to several FFT dealers and get specific quotes.  Any dealer knows all the costs involved in this repair.  They should be able to give exact numbers, even over the phone.

[wavery]

Hello - This is my first post on this forum.

I have a 2000 Niagra Elite - that I bought 2 years ago I'm not the original buyer. My ABS plastic roof is cracking and delaminating over 80% of the top.

Fleetwood said since I'm not the original owner that they would not warranty it.

I was quoted around $4000.00 to $5000.00 for a new top installed....Well I'm not going pay that much for a new top.

I'm thinking about removing the "outside layer" of the Plastic and install fiberglass the top. I would use Epoxy.

Has anyone else successfully repaired or restructured one of these tops.

What have other "non-original" owner done?

Paul Silvernail
Masthead Enterprises, St. Petersburg, FL

I'd get some legal advise.

In some states manufacturers can not get away with that stuff, although they may try and get away with it. An item is either warranted by the manufacturer or it isn't (in some states). If the item is advertised with a 25 year warranty for the purpose of increasing sales, then what difference does it make who the owner is? The manufacturer has an obligation on that product, not the products owner. Same thing goes if there is a recall, you'd better believe that they have an obligation to repair defects that are deemed dangerous and a safety hazard. That is just plain fraudulent and some states have passed laws to protect consumers against this type of marketing.

[brainpause]

I'd get some legal advise.

In some states manufacturers can not get away with that stuff, although they may try and get away with it. An item is either warranted by the manufacturer or it isn't (in some states). If the item is advertised with a 25 year warranty for the purpose of increasing sales, then what difference does it make who the owner is? The manufacturer has an obligation on that product, not the products owner. Same thing goes if there is a recall, you'd better believe that they have an obligation to repair defects that are deemed dangerous and a safety hazard. That is just plain fraudulent and some states have passed laws to protect consumers against this type of marketing.

Nice thoughts, but the warranty explicitly states that it is only for the original owner. Pretty hard to get around that.

Larry

[wavery]

Nice thoughts, but the warranty explicitly states that it is only for the original owner. Pretty hard to get around that.

Larry

It doesn't matter what the warranty "States". It is not legal to sell "Limited non-transferable warranties" in some states. It depends on the state that it was originally sold in. They can write anything that they want in their warranty, contracts or anything else. That doesn't mean that it is legal.

All I'm saying is that I would get some legal advise before I spent $5,000 on a new top or started tearing into repairing the old one, then find out later that it may have been the manufacturers responsibility. One thing is for sure, once the consumer messes with the item, that relieves the manufacturer of any and all responsibility.

I think that I would pay the dealer to do the work then take the manufacturer to Small Claims Court. But then, that's just me. The courts will side with the the consumer in most cases like this. Especially if it is clear that it is a manufacturing defect and the item would normally fall within the limits of the original warranty.

[mike4947]

BUT, the Fleetwood warranty isn't "sold". What it is, is the original OEM warranty, not a aftermarket service contract commonly called a "warranty".

Let's see, first you have to "prove" whatever happened to a specific roof is a manufacturing defect. Courts do not take the word of the owner for that. Expert testimony could run into the thousands for expenses of the expert(s) not to mention their fees and research costs necessary to prove it.
That rules out small claims court which by their name limits the recovery from a claim.
Now you get into attorney fees since it's in "regular" courts. Not many will take a $5000 case on contingency, so figure by the hour costs.
A few motions by the defense (ie Fleetwood) can rack up a hundred hours of attorney fees and even if you win, then you have to either relying on the court to award you attorney fees or take them back to court and try and recoup the fees from the original suit and the ones generated by the new lawsuit.
Then you have to prove that the original warranty is not valid and to prove what should be covered in your case. All adding up more and more fee hours.
 
It's easy to say take them to court if you don't have to take it there.

[dthurk]

But...if the particular State has legislation that specifically states that a warranty is transferrable and the repair is one that has previously been done by the manufacturer for others under warranty, that should be usable in court in itself and eliminate a lot of the falderall.  

I know in NYS the warranty on a car is in effect until the warranty expires regardless of who owns the car i.e. the warranty is transferrable.  I would suspect that would apply to RV's also, at least in NYS.  

I'm not a lawyer, nor do I know the law.  I certainly haven't researched this issue in NYS nor any other.  I'm just using common sense here to the degree that I have common sense.  (There are some who might think my sense isn't common, especially lawyers and politicians.)  Was Thomas Paine a lawyer or politician?

[Tim5055]

I know in NYS the warranty on a car is in effect until the warranty expires regardless of who owns the car i.e. the warranty is transferrable.  I would suspect that would apply to RV's also, at least in NYS.  

THis actually dosn't compare because all vehicle manufacturers have transferable warranties.  They dont care who owns the car: 3 yr - 36,000 miles they fix it.  Be careful what you "suspect"; most states consumer legislation exempts RVs.

It doesn't matter what the warranty "States". It is not legal to sell "Limited non-transferable warranties" in some states.

I would really like to see an example of a state law that precludes non-transferable warranties.  I have seen lots of states that have written "lemon laws" to protect consumers but the vast majority of them specificlly exempt RVs.

The federal statute on the matter is the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act

When it comes down to it, Fleetwood is the largest manufacturer of RVs of all types.  They have a slew of lawyers looking at everything they do.  MY gut feeling is that they are complying with the laws at hand.

Yhere has been a "class action" lawyer collecting names of folks with bad ABS roofs for over a year now and still no hint of a lawsuit.

[wavery]

Hello - This is my first post on this forum.

I have a 2000 Niagra Elite - that I bought 2 years ago I'm not the original buyer. My ABS plastic roof is cracking and delaminating over 80% of the top.

Fleetwood said since I'm not the original owner that they would not warranty it.

I was quoted around $4000.00 to $5000.00 for a new top installed....Well I'm not going pay that much for a new top.

I'm thinking about removing the "outside layer" of the Plastic and install fiberglass the top. I would use Epoxy.

Has anyone else successfully repaired or restructured one of these tops.

What have other "non-original" owner done?

Paul Silvernail
Masthead Enterprises, St. Petersburg, FL

BTW Paul.

If you do decide to fiberglass that top, you might want to look into using carbon fiber cloth instead of regular fiberglass. It doesn't really cost that much more. It works best with epoxy resin (which you said you were going to use) and it is about 10x stronger than fiberglass. That means that you won't have to lay it up as heavy, reducing the weight quite a bit. They use it on racing boats to increase strength and cut weight.

The strength of carbon fiber is in the length of the strands. Don't buy small pieces and lay them end to end, like you might with fiberglass. You can buy carbon fiber right off the 500ft roll and have them cut it the exact length.

Try to put a slight dome dome in the top. That will also increase the strength dramatically. Do it right and you will be able to dance on top of that thing.

[Paul at Masthead]

Thanks for all the input...I'm going to get pricing from a few other dealers. Maybe consider trading it in or have a new roof installed. And probably talk to a lawyer friend as well

Or I may go ahead with the fiberglass fix....I own a sailing store and I understand fiberglass.

But I'm still interested in any other repair options

Thanks

[mike4947]

Paul, the roof is a bonded unit. An inner layer, core and outer layer. Almost exactly like a balsa cored deck. Once the outer skin is removed the core and inner will have little rigidity and will most likely need to be flat on a surface with some kind of structure under to keep the shape.
 
Of course vacuum bagging would be preffered. but for the home DIY isn't really practical for something the dimensions of the roof.
Also you'll need to check compatability of the resin you plan to use and the core material in the roof. Note that ABS will not "stick" to either polyester or epoxy resins long term.

[wavery]

Thanks for all the input...I'm going to get pricing from a few other dealers. Maybe consider trading it in or have a new roof installed. And probably talk to a lawyer friend as well

Or I may go ahead with the fiberglass fix....I own a sailing store and I understand fiberglass.

But I'm still interested in any other repair options

Thanks

Yeohsers  My kinda guy.

I had a Passport 45 for 14 years and sailed it around the world a couple times. I worked in Australia laying up custom carbon fiber racing boats for about a year while I was there in 1996 (don't tell anybody). Just sold the boat a couple years ago. Now I'm a land yachty  :p .

Man, with a set up like you have, you could lay up a new carbon fiber top for your PU for about $500 and be done with it for life. You'd never even have to think about it again. It would probably be half the weight (or less) than the original top and at least twice as strong.

Heck, if going got real tough, you could turn the whole thing upside down and use it as a boat!!!! :yikes:

[dthurk]

THis actually dosn't compare because all vehicle manufacturers have transferable warranties.  They dont care who owns the car: 3 yr - 36,000 miles they fix it.  Be careful what you "suspect"; most states consumer legislation exempts RVs.




I would really like to see an example of a state law that precludes non-transferable warranties.  I have seen lots of states that have written "lemon laws" to protect consumers but the vast majority of them specificlly exempt RVs.

Agreed about being careful, but I usually start with my suspicions, logic and whatever common sense I have.  Then the research for factual and supporting information starts.  I know the non-transferable warranty thing has been batted around here and aluded to as existing in "some other state", but nothing concrete has ever been offered.  I'd be anxious to see something definite in this area, if it exists.  I haven't researched it, as I've not run into any warranty problems with my camper.  I did research NYS's lemon law at one point for a car we owned, don't remember ever reading anything about RV's.  We didn't own one at the time, so I really didn't notice one way or the other.  

I said in my post I wasn't a lawyer, nor had I done any research.  I guess that was my attempt at a disclaimer.  What you say makes a lot of sense.  Your posts always do, and your web page is a wealth of great and accurate information.  Thanks for doing what you do.

[jbalash]

I called a large local dealer yesterday to inquire about the warranty on my 2000 Bayside's delaminating roof and was able to get in with a multiple order that they had just sent in for other roofs. My shipping is going to be about $375.00 as compared to the $950.00 if I was ordering alone. Whoever  lives in a populated area with a large dealership around may be able to do the same.
Hope this helps.
Jim

[tlhdoc]

I called a large local dealer yesterday to inquire about the warranty on my 2000 Bayside's delaminating roof and was able to get in with a multiple order that they had just sent in for other roofs. My shipping is going to be about $375.00 as compared to the $950.00 if I was ordering alone. Whoever lives in a populated area with a large dealership around may be able to do the same.
Hope this helps.
Jim

That is a great price for where you live.  I live about 2 hours from the Fleetwood factory and they charged me $300 for shipping  when my roof was replaced in 2002.