Newbie needs advice on BRAKES . . .

[Billy Bob]

GUYS, I'm sorry but you do not know the complete law. I just registered my boat trailer AGAIN for the 21st time in NY at 1400 lbs empty. With boat and gear it is easily 2000 lbs. I have to get it inspected every year and it passes every year without brakes. (I purchased the complete boat, motor and trailer NEW from a marina in 1985)

BUT you are right with campers. Why NYS makes a different law when it comes to campers I don't know. Call ANY boat dealer and ASK!!!

OH BTW I have towed my boat in NY, OHIO, PA, MI, WI, MN, Ontario and Quebec all WITHOUT trailer brakes.

Bob

[tlhdoc]

NYS laws/regulations say the braking requirement starts at 1000 pounds unloaded weight or 3000 pounds gross loaded weight if the trailer in question weighs less than 1000 pounds.

NYS law reads anything over 1000 lbs empty weight requires brakes. If empty weight is less than 1000, then brakes are required if you are over 3000 GVW.

I think you two are saying the same thing.   Am I wrong?  I only see a one pound difference.

[wavery]

GUYS, I'm sorry but you do not know the complete law. I just registered my boat trailer AGAIN for the 21st time in NY at 1400 lbs empty. With boat and gear it is easily 2000 lbs. I have to get it inspected every year and it passes every year without brakes. (I purchased the complete boat, motor and trailer NEW from a marina in 1985)

BUT you are right with campers. Why NYS makes a different law when it comes to campers I don't know. Call ANY boat dealer and ASK!!!

OH BTW I have towed my boat in NY, OHIO, PA, MI, WI, MN, Ontario and Quebec all WITHOUT trailer brakes.

Bob

Billy Bob

You can look it up for yourself. That's just what the law states. There is no differentiation as to what the trailer is used for.

I can tell you that the state of California is the same way. I built all of my own boat and dune buggy trailers. I even built a toy hauler. When DMV inspected them, they made sure that the lights worked, there was a number stamped in the tongue that matched the rego and the license plate was in the right place and that was it. I had brakes on the toy hauler but they never asked to see them. I'll tell you what though, if I got stopped for something and didn't have them, I would have gotten a citation.

[dthurk]

I think you two are saying the same thing.   Am I wrong?  I only see a one pound difference.

Yes, we're saying the same thing.  So is Wavery in legalese.  I'm going from memory, Wavery is getting information off some official NYS web page.  Don't know where mike is finding his information, but we all seem to be on the same page.  Ends up kind of moot as far as I'm concerned.  Brakes are better than no brakes.  After all, the laws of physics supercede the laws of any state.

[AustinBoston]

I'm SORRY but this is not true. I have towed my 2000 lb boat for 21 years and it doesn't have or need brakes according to NYS law. I have fishing buddies that have much bigger boats that are NEW that didn't come with brakes. And as far as a out of stater coming into NYS towing he would be going by his state laws as far as electric brakes. BUT all newer CAMPERS in NYS need brakes to pass NYS inspections BUT boats do NOT.

While I agree the OP was wrong about the 1,000 lb rule (unless it just recently changed), there is some junk in your post, too.

I wonder what "much bigger" means.  These boating sites think 3,000 lbs is the rule in NYS:

http://www.boatus.com/towing/towlaw.htm
http://www.americanboating.org/towing.asp

As far as who's towing laws apply, reciprocity is not universal, and you may or may not have to comply with all of the laws of the state you are towing in, even if you comply with the rules of your own state.  The cop writing your ticket does not know the rules of your state, or even if reciprocity applies, and you will have to go to court to prove you are innocent - if indeed you are innocent.  Unless the state has specifically granted out-of-state vehicles exeptions, you must comply even when towing from another state.

An example of an infraction that no state offers reciprocity on is towing two trailers.  Here in Minnesota, I can strap a boat on the back of a 5th wheel.  If I tow that into any state that does not allow two trailers, I will be stopped, and not just ticketed, but prevented from proceeeding until one of the trailers is disconnected.  The state legislature, judge, and cop will all not care one wit that it is legal in Minnesota.

I'd just love to know if California, with it's Sierra Mountains, or Colorado, with the Rockies, (or a bunch of other mountainous states) cares in the least if your state doesn't require brakes while towing a 2,000 lb. trailer down from a 10,000 foot pass.  They have made the decision that their people are not going to be subject to dangerous vehicles, and they don't make exceptions for out-of-staters.

Austin

[dthurk]

AB- your post seems a bit confusing to me.  I think you're saying about the same thing that I'm saying,  laws of the state apply to all traveling in that state.  As you say, cops aren't going to know the laws of all 50 states, they'll write tickets to comply with the laws of their state.  

I'm not sure what OP you're referring to.  Several of us have said the same thing about NYS towing laws as applied to campers.  The 1000 empty rule does apply in NYS, and has since at least 1971.  Apparently, the laws in NYS pertaining to boats do not acknowledge the 1000 lb rule.  I don't know why and find it somewhat disconcerting to know that someone in the state could be towing 1.5 tons without brakes and with a tow vehicle that may be unable to handle the added weight...and be legal about it.  

At any rate, a lot of banter has been tossed around in this thread about a subject that is a safety issue.  It's getting confusing as to what is right and what is wrong.  If any of this is misconstrued, it could result in a dangerous situation.  I'd hate to see that happen.    It's probably best for each to look up the laws in their respective states and make sure they are complying.  And, as I've said before, brakes are always better than no brakes.  You always have a bad result when you break the laws of physics.

[AustinBoston]

AB- your post seems a bit confusing to me.

I'm actually not surprised. I got nailed by not reading the whole context (again) which is becoming more and more common for me...must be old age.

When I re-read my post (after reading the rest of the thread), there were parts that sounded stupid.  But I let myself be too lazy to fix it.

The post I quoted made the statement "And as far as a out of stater coming into NYS towing he would be going by his state laws as far as electric brakes."  which was the main target of my post.

Apparently, the laws in NYS pertaining to boats do not acknowledge the 1000 lb rule. I don't know why and find it somewhat disconcerting to know that someone in the state could be towing 1.5 tons without brakes and with a tow vehicle that may be unable to handle the added weight...and be legal about it.

I wonder if what is really going on there is that it's easy to have a relatively large boat trailer that is still well under 1,000 lbs. empty (i.e. no boat) that is well over 3,000 lbs loaded, so they just say "over 3,000 lbs. has to have brakes."

Austin

[masspopup]

I am shoppoing for a used pop up right now, so how do I tell if the pop up has its own brakes?

Masspopup

[dthurk]

I wonder if what is really going on there is that it's easy to have a relatively large boat trailer that is still well under 1,000 lbs. empty (i.e. no boat) that is well over 3,000 lbs loaded, so they just say "over 3,000 lbs. has to have brakes."
 
Austin

That is the intent of the law as I understand it.  Apparently, the 1000 lb part of the law doesn't apply to boats, and I don't understand why this should be so.  According to the boating laws, you only need brakes if you're over 3000 GVW.  If they were following the law as applies to other trailers, if they have over 1000 lbs empty weight, they should also have brakes, but that doesn't apply here.  Somehow I think this post of mine is also confusing.  Oh, well.
 
Let's try a couple of examples.  I own a utility trailer with a registered unloaded weight of 750 lbs.  The GVW is listed at 2990 lbs, even though it is capable of carrying more, so the manufacturer could avoid installing brakes and keep the price down on the trailer.
 
Our camper is given a dry weight around 1500 lbs.  GVW is 2440.  Brakes are required for this trailer because it's over 1000 lbs.  
 
Doesn't make a whole lot of sense that the vehicle with the lower GVW requires brakes and the other one can get away with no brakes.  The boat laws make even more of a mess of this thing.  Such are legislative decrees, I guess.  I've been considering adding brakes to the utility trailer.  After towing the camper, I like brakes a lot better than no brakes.  
 
So, AB, WE aren't confusing.  Let's put the blame where it really lies, in government.

[wavery]

HEY RCA

Where are you??? :confused:  Who the heck do you think you are coming in here and stirring up all this contraversy...........on your very FIRST post.............then running off into the bushes to hide? :swear:

Bet you didn't know what kinda whackos hung out in this place :yikes: .....did ya??

Just kidding.

Get the brakes and let us know how it's going . Just be careful towing a boat on your PU trailer :J

Have a nice day.................chicken :J



BTW...............Welcome to PUT.

[wynot]

I am shoppoing for a used pop up right now, so how do I tell if the pop up has its own brakes?
 
Masspopup

Brake drums will be visible through the wheels.  If you just see the axle spindles, then no brakes.  If you're underneath, electrically braked axles have wires running out of the hub/drum (backing plate) area.  I guess (don't know) that hydraulic (surge) braked, have a brake line to each brake, in addition to a large coupler area.
 
If it is a newer bodied Coleman (ABS ends/ABS or aluminum roof) it most likely has brakes.
 
General rule of thumb, smaller popups often don't have brakes (except Colemans/Fleetwood), the larger ones do.
 
Hope this helps.

[RCA]

Good Grief, my apologies for stirring things up then bugging out.... my job, kids and out of town relatives have kept me BUSY this past week and I haven't had a chance to jump back on until now.

Can't thank everybody enough for all the great input.  What an excellent education vehicle this board has become for us.  

What's done is done.... we picked up the no-brakes Jayco last Friday and drove it the 35 miles home with our minivan without incident.  After reading everyone's input I emailed the Jayco company with my concerns.  A representative promptly phoned back... was noncommittal about the issue but allowed as how it all comes down to our individual situation... that our comfort level with the situation would be gauged with experience.

Our conclusion is this... that the Sienna seems to handle the towing and braking very well, but we would not be comfortable in an area with major grades / hills / traffic.  Thankfully, we live in the relatively level Kansas City area and intend to initially use the camper for local, weekend campouts.  In the next year or so we will be investing in much more substantial TV and will hold off on the Rockies trips and such until then.  

Incidentally, the law in our home state of Kansas dictates that brakes are not required on trailers pulling 2000 lbs or less.  Seems to me that's broadly stated... that much should be contingent on what you're towing with.  Thoughts?

[wavery]

Thanks for getting back to us I was thinking maybe you didn't survive the trip home with your new (brakeless) trailer :p .

Please forgive my rather sick humor. It was just a bit of a tease really :p .

As for the brakes......I don't see a huge problem as long as you don't overload. You are right.......Kansas being flat relieves a lot of concern. The big problem with towing is brake fade. You don't get that in flatlands unless you drive with your left foot on the brake pedal.

Having said all that, adding brakes in the future is not all that expensive and a person with light mechanical skills can do it easily.

[dthurk]

Hey RCA, welcome back.  Don't get too bothered by Wavery's post, this really is a friendly club.  Some discussions get somewhat heated, it's easy to confuse opinion and fact.  In the end, I think we all respect each other.  Wavery's really a good guy and is highly knowledgeable on a lot of subjects.  I'm glad we have him around here.

In the end, brakes can be added at a later point in time, and it probably would be good to have it done when you can.  Just be careful and take it easy for now.  Happy camping!

[AustinBoston]

Having said all that, adding brakes in the future is not all that expensive and a person with light mechanical skills can do it easily.

Yes, several people here have done the job themselves.

Austin