towing question

[msteward]

I'm new to the pop up camping world.  I took my fleetwood e1 out for the first time this weekend, loved it.  I am towing it with a '97 4runner with a 2" lift kit.   The tow set up was anything but level.   back of TV way down and nose of trailer down.   Someone suggested that because of the lift on the TV I need a drop arm insert in the hitch.  Seems counter intuitive to me.   Any advice welcome.  I know the vehicle is probably close to maxed on its towing capacity, but it seemed to do ok, even over mtn passes.  
Thanks
Matt

[AustinBoston]

Take a look at the Reese Mini-350 and the Reese Mini-400 weight distributing hitches:

Mini-350
Mini-400

(Above links are for illustration and may not be the best place to buy.)

Many tow vehicles require use of a weight distributing hitch (WDH, aka "equalizing hitch") when the tongue weight of the trailer exceeds a certain weight (this weight is always less than the rated maximum tongue weight).  The purpose of a WDH is to redistribute, or "equalize" the tongue weight among all three axles.  Some of it shifts to the front axle, and some of it shifts to the trailer axle, while some of it remains on the rear axle.

Shifting cargo in the trailer or tow vehicle will not accomplish the same thing, because shifting cargo also shifts the center of gravity, while a WDH does nothing to the center of gravity.  A trailer with a center of gravity near or behind the axle is unstable to tow (and can be very dangerous); one with a center of gravity behind the axle will also flip the tongue in the air as soon as it's unhitched.

Some people will suggest using air bags, but air bags cover symptoms without addressing the underlying problem, air bags interfere with the proper functioning of some types of ABS brakes, and air bags will void some vehicle's warranties.

Never use air shocks on today's vehicles.

Be careful, though.  Many unibody vehicles can be damaged by the forces of a WDH, so check your owner's manual carefully.  For those vehicles, suspension enhancements (air bags, etc.), weight reduction (taking stuff out of both the trailer and the tow vehicle), or replacement of the tow vehicle or trailer are the only options.

The same holds true of some trailers (they can be damaged by a WDH).  Most Fleetwood trailers are OK with a WDH, but I don't know about the E1.  If you buy a Mini-350, be sure you get the special version with the brackets designed for Fleetwood trailers.

Austin

[wynot]

I'm new to the pop up camping world. I took my fleetwood e1 out for the first time this weekend, loved it. I am towing it with a '97 4runner with a 2" lift kit. The tow set up was anything but level. back of TV way down and nose of trailer down. Someone suggested that because of the lift on the TV I need a drop arm insert in the hitch. Seems counter intuitive to me. Any advice welcome. I know the vehicle is probably close to maxed on its towing capacity, but it seemed to do ok, even over mtn passes.
Thanks
Matt

Until you get the rear sag out of it, you will have a nose down trailer, no matter whether you use a drop drawbar or not.  What do you have on the front of the e1?  Large ATV?  (If I remember right, the e1 has the toy hauler front deck??).  You may have a lot more weight on that tongue and in the cargo area of the 4Runner than you are currently equipped to handle.

[tlhdoc]

You will need to get rid of the rear end sag in your TV, then decide what you need in a draw bar.  Air springs, Timbren Rubber springs or a weight distributing hitch are things you need to think about.

[msteward]

You will need to get rid of the rear end sag in your TV, then decide what you need in a draw bar.  Air springs, Timbren Rubber springs or a weight distributing hitch are things you need to think about.

Thanks for the info, though I'm still a bit lost.  The E1 has a front cargo loaded to 250 lbs, so think two bikes, not ATV.   I have been told my options are:

wt distribution hitch
air bags
overhaul springs

Any advice on the best of these options is very welcome.

Thanks for the help.

Matt

[AustinBoston]

Thanks for the info, though I'm still a bit lost.  The E1 has a front cargo loaded to 250 lbs, so think two bikes, not ATV.   I have been told my options are:

wt distribution hitch
air bags
overhaul springs

Any advice on the best of these options is very welcome.

Thanks for the help.

Matt

First, what you have loaded on the nose is not the same as the tongue weight.  The only way to know your tongue weight is to put the tongue on a scale and measure it.  Hopefully, someone can give you a link to how to do this.

Second, the best choice is the weight distributibuting hitch if your tow vehicle can use one.  The only way to know that is to open your 4runner's owner's manual and see what it says.  

The second choice is probably the air springs (aka air bags) because they can be mostly deflated when the trailer is not attached.

Austin

[wynot]

Thanks for the info, though I'm still a bit lost. The E1 has a front cargo loaded to 250 lbs, so think two bikes, not ATV. I have been told my options are:
 
wt distribution hitch
air bags
overhaul springs
 
Any advice on the best of these options is very welcome.
 
Thanks for the help.
 
Matt

I personally like the airbags, which are inserted into the coil springs and can be adjusted when loaded or not loaded.  I don't know too much about the donuts for leaf springs which you might have?
 
Overload springs don't usually lend themselves to a comfortable ride unloaded.
 
OK, first you have to determine your tongue weight to determine if you are overweight there.  Every trailer has a recommended tongue weight, and every vehicle has a maximum hitch weight.
 
The thing is that there are a lot of factors to consider.  IF you beef up the rear suspension by adding airbags or overload springs, you have to make sure that you are not technically overloading the rear axle or rear tires.
 
A rear sag indicates one or more things.  
1) Soft suspension
2) Worn suspension
3) Overloaded cargo area
4) Overloaded hitch
 
If #1 I would add airbags personally as my way of combatting it.
If #2 (meaning lotsa miles on it), I would see if the vehicle normally rides lower in the rear and address that first, then consider airbags.
#3, well, you know what that means...
#4, becomes a weight distribution challenge, in the trailer itself.  If you're offsetting front weight, then you need to move heavier further back either towards the axle or to the rear behind the axle.  With your load, you would have the most trouble with this one.
 
Hope this helped clarify a bit.

[mike4947]

With a toy hauler the best solution is a weight distribution hitch, But the two Austin recommended won't work. The E1 will have more weight on the tongue than either can handle safely.

I'd look at either an Equalizer brand WD hitch or a Reese equipped with dual can sway control. They have models that will handle tongue weights, in the equalizers' case from 250 to 1400 pounds and with the Reese from 400 to 1400 pounds.
That way you can adjust the WD for the load on the trailer and not upset the normal weight distribution of the TV.
 
Air/Lifts are a good second choice, but they will not transfer any weight from the rear axle of the TV.

[AustinBoston]

I personally like the airbags, which are inserted into the coil springs and can be adjusted when loaded or not loaded.

One thing  can't figure out is people's love affair with air bags.  Please, I would love to know why you prefer them over a WDH when towing.

#4, becomes a weight distribution challenge, in the trailer itself. If you're offsetting front weight, then you need to move heavier further back either towards the axle or to the rear behind the axle. With your load, you would have the most trouble with this one.

And very dangerous if done wrong or to excess.

After looking at the e1 specs on Fleetwood's site, I think the OP's only choice is a WDH, and mike is right, the Reese Mini-350 and Mini-400 are not big enough to do it.

Dry tongue weight of 270 lbs., minimum loaded tongue weight of 350 lbs. (better would be close to but not over 525 lbs.).  Beyond a Mini-400.

Austin

[msteward]

One thing  can't figure out is people's love affair with air bags.  Please, I would love to know why you prefer them over a WDH when towing.



And very dangerous if done wrong or to excess.

After looking at the e1 specs on Fleetwood's site, I think the OP's only choice is a WDH, and mike is right, the Reese Mini-350 and Mini-400 are not big enough to do it.

Dry tongue weight of 270 lbs., minimum loaded tongue weight of 350 lbs. (better would be close to but not over 525 lbs.).  Beyond a Mini-400.

Austin

Thanks for all the helpful advice.  I'm realizing that I probably need a burlier tow vehicle.   Make due with the 4 runner until next summer then pick up a new/used vehicle better suited to the task.
Thanks again.

[wynot]

One thing can't figure out is people's love affair with air bags. Please, I would love to know why you prefer them over a WDH when towing.

Why I like them... (which, btw, I don't have them anymore, because I no longer have that TV...)  Airbags, when you have a vehicle with a soft suspension, firm up the ride wonderfully, as well as keep the ride height even.  So it also helps whether towing or not.
 
I would consider having a WDH more of a hassle to use than anything else. Another thing to slow up hooking up. That said, I do believe they have a purpose and are effective, just thankful that I don't need one.
 
Since I now tow with a Tahoe that has automatic leveling, I no longer need airbags to accomplish the same thing.
 

And very dangerous if done wrong or to excess.

AB, yeah, it would be dangerous if done to excess.  I think to make a huge change to the weight distribution of the camper, without a storage trunk, you'd have a heck of a time moving weight to the rear, unless you strapped a loaded 4 bike, bike rack on the rear of the camper.
 
With us having a Utah, having too much weight on the tongue is NOT a problem!!

[AustinBoston]

Why I like them... (which, btw, I don't have them anymore, because I no longer have that TV...)  Airbags, when you have a vehicle with a soft suspension, firm up the ride wonderfully, as well as keep the ride height even.  So it also helps whether towing or not.

If you need them while not towing, I can understand.  Better though, is to not overload your suspension in the first place.

Most of what I say below does not apply to your current tow vehicle, because the entire suspension would be designed to take the maximum load with the suspension set at it's firmest.

I would consider having a WDH more of a hassle to use than anything else. Another thing to slow up hooking up.

It typically takes me 30 seconds.  I can't even get out an air hose in 30 seconds.  So I don't understand that.  Probably took less time to install, too.

Since I now tow with a Tahoe that has automatic leveling, I no longer need airbags to accomplish the same thing.

While the automatic leveling does the same thing as the air bags, it does not do the same thing as a WDH.  While I don't believe your setup is dangerous, I do believe air bags can and often do cover the symptoms of what could be a dangerous setup.  Just because it's level doesn't mean it's safe.

Usually, all parts of a suspension have more-or-less the same rating.  When you add air bags, you increase the capacity of the springs, and nothing else.  You haven't increased the capacity of the axle, the tires, the various mounting points (but the air bag may partly bypass one or two mountings) the shocks, etc.  So while the springs were complaining "I'm overloaded," before air bags, once the air bags were added, the rest of the suspension was still overloaded, it just didn't look overloaded.

I understand that this is often a moot point with pop-ups, but with manufacturers continuing to churn out heavier and heavier pop-ups, it is more and more often a real problem.  For example,  in 2000 when we bought our pop-up, it was the heaviest pop-up (multi-way tie) manufactured by any U.S. manufacturer.  But the OP's pop-up is 250 pounds heavier, and is the lightest in Fleetwood's Evolution series!  In just 4 years, the lightest Fleetwood trailer has gone from 1100lbs GVWR to 1500 lbs GVWR!  It wasn't all that long ago that a 1500 lb pop-up would have been considered heavy...now it's about the smallest you'll find (new).

Some manufacturers have reached the point that they are producing two-axle pop-ups with 14" wheels.  It's not like the days when we could just strap an aluminum box with a tent on the back of any family station wagon and go.

And far too often, air bags are a band-aid on a sprained ankle.  Might look good, but doesn't solve the problem.

Austin

[Nemesis56]

If I may suggest something based on a similar experience..  
I have a 2003 Chevy Venture WB Edition.  Rated for 3500 towing.  Bought it new.  Towed my Sea Ray Bought (2000 lbs) with no problem.  Have about 40k on it. Noticed this year that fully loaded it would scrape slightly pulling out of the driveway.  It would do it occasionally then on a more regular basis.  Also noticed that stability didn't seem right towing or not. Also noticed with trailer or passengers, the van would squat 2-3 " lower than normal.  Dealer couldn't find anything wrong.  Looked into heavy duty springs.  No such animal.  The WB edition has the largest springs GM makes.  It does not have Rear Leveling Susp.  Took the rear shocks off at home, (10 min job) and the right rear would collapse completely with almost no load put on it.  Left side was better but not by much.  Talked to a few owners of Montanas and Shilouttes (same vehicle) and was suggested to try Monroe Reflex shocks.  Dealer wanted $250.00 to install HD Goodwrenchs.  Got the Reflexs for $110.00 and noticed right away... When installing,  the van actually rose 2" in the rear.  No sagging at all when loaded. Just a slight stiffness in ride,  but everyone who rides in it before and after noticed a big improvement especially on the highway.  No body roll, no swaying. It handles and tows like a dream even fully loaded.  Total repair took 20 mins from start to finish.  I would not hesitate to recommend Monroe Reflex shocks to anyone who does any hauling or towing.  Hopes this helps.