small tow vehicle?

[wynot]

Okay, let's talk specifically tow ratings. You folks mention the Ford Escape which is rated at 3500lbs, correct? (and other vehicles have been suggested too)
 
Now certainly using a vehicle rated to tow more weight will give me more stopping power. But at some point you have diminishing returns. Using a 3500lb rated vehicle to tow something that's maybe 1200lbs fully loaded is over-kill. I wouldn't mind that, but for the fact that it also means I'm burning a lot more fuel every single day, just to tow something 6-8 times a year! That's wasteful and costly.
 
So, how much is enough without compromising safety?
 
I understand the American mentality of more is always better, but it's not necessarily so easy. I want to consider cost effective as well.
 
I realize you folks don't know me, but I'm VERY conservative with machinery. I don't overload a vehicle, and I'm very very careful about towing and how my trailer is hooked up.
 
Every vehicle I've used to tow has had sufficient capacity to tow safely with the exception of this Chrysler. I didn't plan to get into this situation, but through a series of unplanned events I wound up without a good tow vehicle. I gave it a try, towing with the Chrysler because technically I'm AT the limits. On paper the car should be able to handle this trailer, but I'm not comfortable running that fine line.
 
My assumption is that a vehicle with 1500lbs towing capacity should be able to tow 1200lbs safely. I found a worksheet at one point to help calculate the stuff. It covered GVWR, GCVWR, TW ... all the goodies.
 
So here's what I consider the bottom line:
 
IF ... My combined passenger weight, plus gear, plus 200lbs max tongue weight is LESS than GVWR ... AND my loaded trailer is less than the tow rating of the vehicle (and the loaded trailer does not exceed the GVWR of the trailer) ... AND ... (here's the piece of data I can't yet find) The total weight of loaded vehicle and trailer does not exceed GCVWR!!! I'm good to go.
 
Now, from my experience with the Chrysler, I know I don't want to be AT the limits for any of these numbers. I'd like some margin of safetly. Perhaps 10% ??
 
Does this sound logical and reasonable??

Technically, yes.  But for those of us who have towed the the "max limit", there is no way I would want to repeat it.  Unibody cars/minivans/whatever, just aren't great tow vehicles, especially with FWD.  I personally think that 3,500 lbs is about 1,500 lbs too high for some of these as tow vehicles.
 
You mention being conservative with machinery.  If you run something at near full capacity, which isn't designed for it - technically you may be right on, but I suspect that you would have a higher number of early failures.  These days, things are NOT overbuilt - transmissions fail, CV joints fail, brake rotors warp.  Cars, minivans, and crossover SUVs are designed as people movers first and just happen to have tow ratings.
 
Just my couple of thoughts.

[rtt108]

So your saying that vehicles "just happen to have tow ratings" and they (the manufacturer) really don't mean the vehicle can actually tow that much?  

You wrote "If you run something at near full capacity, which isn't designed for it ..."

Huh?  

I would have thought that the definition of the towing capacity is that this is how much the vehicle IS designed for?  

If this were not so I would think the auto makers would open themselves up for huge law suits!

I agree that running at that limit or exceeding it can cause damage to the vehicle, or worse, could get you killed.

But if a vehicle has a published towing capacity of 1500lbs, and I plan to tow between 66% and 80% of that (depending on if I stow gear in the trailer or in the vehicle) ... , shouldn't I have a reasonable expectation that I'm not doing something unsafe?

I guess I have been basing my whole thinking on the assumption that published to ratings are reliable.

Would you say that's not so?

[wynot]

So your saying that vehicles "just happen to have tow ratings" and they (the manufacturer) really don't mean the vehicle can actually tow that much?
 
You wrote "If you run something at near full capacity, which isn't designed for it ..."
 
Huh?
 
I would have thought that the definition of the towing capacity is that this is how much the vehicle IS designed for?
 
If this were not so I would think the auto makers would open themselves up for huge law suits!
 
I agree that running at that limit or exceeding it can cause damage to the vehicle, or worse, could get you killed.
 
But if a vehicle has a published towing capacity of 1500lbs, and I plan to tow between 66% and 80% of that (depending on if I stow gear in the trailer or in the vehicle) ... , shouldn't I have a reasonable expectation that I'm not doing something unsafe?
 
I guess I have been basing my whole thinking on the assumption that published to ratings are reliable.
 
Would you say that's not so?

From observation and research, I can state that most vehicles have more exceptions to the "published" tow rating than don't.  If you have an owner's manual or brochure which prints a tow rating, you may have a vehicle which as equipped has a lesser tow rating.  Often there are two tow ratings, one with a braked trailer (higher), and one without (lower).  Guess which one people latch onto?
 
Factor in rig combined weights, axle max weights, tongue weights, cargo weights - and it gets complex real quick.
 
I can state that most passenger type vehicles are designed to expect the weight of a person (usually figured at 150 lb per person) plus some amount of cargo.  I don't weigh anywhere near 150 lbs, so in effect, if the full occupancy of the vehicle were reached with that number of me, I could be overloaded if I carried the amount of weight the manufacturer figured in for cargo.
 
So, does the vehicle fail with that overload condition?  Probably not, because the chance of the same load being there mile after mile isn't there on a routine basis for the life of the vehicle.  Which is what you are saying with 6-8 times per year.  But don't try to get warranty claims, or insurance claims if you are technically overloaded when it breaks.
 
Trailers add a dynamic into the condition that I think sometimes gets glossed over by a quick glance at the tow rating.  I've watched the tow ratings from the perspective of someone who sells RVs for a living AND tows themselves.  I can't count the number of times someone has looked at a camper that has a UVW of less than a 100 lbs below the PUBLISHED tow rating and said, I can tow that, no problem.  And then herds the 3 kids, 2 out of work in-laws, and themselves into a minivan which is already dragging the rear without a trailer.
 
It kinda works like speed limits, no matter what it is, folks think that they can exceed it because it applies to someone else.  I'm not saying that you can't do what you want regarding tow ratings - I once watched a customer load a 24,000 lb (unloaded) 5th wheel onto the back of a Ford rated at 17,000 lbs max - but you can be assured that it didn't leave the lot without several signed notarized releases of liability, notification that they were knowingly in violation of the law (overweight vehicle), and warranty releases on the trailer for damage sustained while towing with this tow vehicle.  Had it been an in-state deal, it couldn't have left the lot, but they lived 300 miles away.  The customer insisted that they would eventually upgrade their tow vehicle, but that they had towed several times well in excess of their tow rating.  That poor Ford's duallies were half flat and the hood was sitting high in the air at the top of the shock travel.

[rtt108]

You make one very good point that I have not checked specifically.  I'm using the marketing number of 1500.  I'll need to verify that this is for an un-braked trailer.  In fact a co-worker has a Matrix in the parking lot.  I can check his manual at lunch today.  So, I will check the owners manual on this today.  I would buy the car with a factory towing package, and make sure there are no exceptions in the manual.  That obviously would be a problem if the vehicle was not "really" rated for 1500, un-braked.

So, rather than talking in vague generalities, lets do the specific numbers for the Matrix.  It's not very complex as I see it ... unless I've just completely missed something ... which I may have.

BTW, I'm not trying to be argumentative ... and I do appreciate the discussion.  It forces me to really think through this and make sure it's okay before I make the purchase.  So thanks!  This does help.  It sounds like your professionally involved in RVs?  Thanks for taking the time to educate me on all this.

Matrix GVWR is 3847, Curb weight is 2679.  So 3847 - 2679 = 1168.  Subtract 200lbs max tongue weight, 96 lbs for 12 gallons of fuel. That leaves 872.   I'm 195 soaking wet, and the wife is say 155.  Kids are growing so I'll allow 100lbs each, even though they are currently half that.  That puts me within 325 lbs of GVWR.  I figure we carry about 200lbs of gear.  Most of that is food.

If the towing capacily is really 1500lbs, I can put perhaps the 200lbs of gear in the trailer.  Trailer is 995 + 200 ... call it 1200lbs.  I forgot the GVWR for the trailer, but I know 1200lbs does'nt even come close, so I'm good there.

I'm very close to the limit, but not over.  (hmmm ... actually I'm closer than I thought ... but I did over estimate every weight above, so I'll go with it for now)

I sent a question to the dealer to see if they can look up GCVWR for the car.  I can't find a listing for that.  But if that number is greater than 4800lbs I should be okay?

The examples you gave of the mini-van, and the 5th wheeler sound like people who have completely disregarded any type of weight calculations.  I don't think I'm doing that, do you?

So, for the specfic set of numbers above, do you think I would be overloading the vehicle?


My missing pieces of information so far would be to verify GCVWR is > 4800lbs, and veryify that the 1500lb towing capacity is un-braked.

Also keep in mind that I'm buying this car pretty much as a commuter vehicle that has to do rare towing duty.  I want to make that trade-off between buying a small efficient car for daily use, but making sure it can tow a light pop-up without being a danger.

Again, thanks.  I do appreciate you challenging me on all this.  I want to make sure I'm not making a big mistake with this.  And certaily for insurance coverage, and legal issues, I want to make sure I'm operating withing the specifications of the vehicle.

Have I missed any critical part of the calculation?

[rtt108]

Okay, thanks very much to wynot for making me examine this more closely!  

The Toyota manual says the max trailer weight without trailer brakes is only  1000lbs.  So I would have to put all cargo in the vehicle, which puts me pretty close to GVWR, plus I'd be at the limits of the cars towing capacity.

I'm not sure I'm comfortable with that.

back to the drawing board  

[SpeakEasy]

How many MPG does the Matrix get? You might want to consider a Highlander. The 2-wheel drive would work for you. You probably could even go with the 4-cyllinder model.

I have a 4-wheel drive, v-6, and it gets about 22 MPG for daily use. The smaller engine would certainly do a lot better, and it would still have (I think) plenty of towing capacity for you.

You mentioned the clunky ride of the Matrix. The ride of the Highlander will please you. I had to rent a Ford Escape once, after having the Highlander for almost a year. I couldn't wait to return the Escape because of its clunky ride.

Just some thoughts.

-Speak

[rtt108]

as discussed previously, manual transmission is a must have.
My in-laws have a Highlander.  I agree it's a nice vehicle, but
I can't afford one, and no stick shift is available.

I'm pricing out used Foresters.  Seems like this is about as close as
I'll get to what I want.  And I should be able to afford one a couple
of years old.

Thanks for all the input, and help on this.

[wynot]

as discussed previously, manual transmission is a must have.
My in-laws have a Highlander. I agree it's a nice vehicle, but
I can't afford one, and no stick shift is available.
 
I'm pricing out used Foresters. Seems like this is about as close as
I'll get to what I want. And I should be able to afford one a couple
of years old.
 
Thanks for all the input, and help on this.

Do you want a manual for the sake of fuel economy or something else?  Both Mercedes and Toyota have stated that they can actually make automatics that are more efficient on average than most cars driven with a manual transmission.  (In other words, the normal driver will get as good or better than gas mileage with an automatic vs manual in at least Mercedes' and Toyota's research.)
 
The Subarus I mentioned with problems were all Foresters.  Keep in mind, I know very little about Subarus - I've never owned one, just worked on the family's.

[wynot]

Okay, thanks very much to wynot for making me examine this more closely!
 
The Toyota manual says the max trailer weight without trailer brakes is only 1000lbs. So I would have to put all cargo in the vehicle, which puts me pretty close to GVWR, plus I'd be at the limits of the cars towing capacity.
 
I'm not sure I'm comfortable with that.
 
back to the drawing board

Sorry about that.  You've got a great sense of the details, it is just that your restrictions (not judging them, btw), really limit your choices.
 
In a nutshell, you want-

• A fuel efficient car
• A Toyota or Honda
• A manual tranmission
• Space for 4
• Enough cargo room to put your stuff in the car
• A relatively inexpensive car
• A safety margin of 10% or better

At least one of those points is in jeopardy.

[rtt108]

Sorry about that.  You've got a great sense of the details, it is just that your restrictions (not judging them, btw), really limit your choices.
 
In a nutshell, you want-

• A fuel efficient car
• A Toyota or Honda
• A manual tranmission
• Space for 4
• Enough cargo room to put your stuff in the car
• A relatively inexpensive car
• A safety margin of 10% or better

At least one of those points is in jeopardy.

I want a manual just for drivability.  I just prefer to shift myself.  I find automatics really annoying.  They never shift at the right time.

Yes, you've summed up my dilema exactly. ... actually you left off 1500lb towing capacity ... but, yes there's almost nothing on the market that does everything I'm looking for.

I'm going to take more time to drive a couple of Subaru's, maybe another RAV and a CRV ... maybe an Element.  

I'm still concerned about going with the Forester.  I mentioned I was looking at these to a co-worker yesterday and I got the same horror stories.  They've had 3 Outbacks ... 2 cars blew head gaskets, the other had the 2.2, and 2 cars have had clutches replaced.  One of them is on it's third clutch ... because of excessive chatter.  Not good.  Thier oldest Subaru was good, so they bought the next one.  It was trouble.  They bought the third thinking the other was just an oddity, and it was trouble too?  This is why I'd limited myself to Honda and Toyota in the first place.


I looked in my Northern Equipment catalog last night at trailer brakes.  I didn't see anything that would work on the little 8 inch rims that my Colman uses.  So I don't think I can add trailer brakes.

The only way I think I can make the Matrix work for me at this point is if we just put all the passengers in my wife's Civic, and I use the matrix to tow the empty trailer, and perhaps the bulky stuff like coolers and sleeping bags.  But that's not really ideal.

[ScoobyDoo]

I'm just a dump truck driver, what kind of empty trailer has this kind of specs?

   customer load a 24,000 lb (unloaded) 5th wheel


      I pull a tri-axle, 28 ft, 1/2round enddump made out of 1/4in steel with a GVWR of 110,000 that weighs about13,500.

    I don't want anybody riking life but I think that I could move a house with what some poeple on this board would think somebody else would need to have "safty margin" tow a Fleetwood Avalon.
    If you are only going to make a few short trips towing each year why not put wife, kids, and other gear in the other car on the way there? Sure you use more gas that weekend but you would save the rest of the year.

[rtt108]

I'm just a dump truck driver, what kind of empty trailer has this kind of specs?

   customer load a 24,000 lb (unloaded) 5th wheel


      I pull a tri-axle, 28 ft, 1/2round enddump made out of 1/4in steel with a GVWR of 110,000 that weighs about13,500.

    I don't want anybody riking life but I think that I could move a house with what some poeple on this board would think somebody else would need to have "safty margin" tow a Fleetwood Avalon.
    If you are only going to make a few short trips towing each year why not put wife, kids, and other gear in the other car on the way there? Sure you use more gas that weekend but you would save the rest of the year.

Yes,  I couldn't agree more.  The Matrix is not off my list.  It may just require 2 cars for camping as you say.  This becomes more of a pain on longer trips.  It's nice to ride together.

I'm researching the Subaru Forester's reliability as best I can.  If it's not going to be a money pit, maybe I'll go that way.  I know I'd prefer the Matrix the other 355 days of the year.

[JimQPublic]

I...I'm going to take more time to drive a couple of Subaru's, maybe another RAV and a CRV ... maybe an Element.  

I'm still concerned about going with the Forester.  I mentioned I was looking at these to a co-worker yesterday and I got the same horror stories.  They've had 3 Outbacks ... 2 cars blew head gaskets, the other had the 2.2, and 2 cars have had clutches replaced.  One of them is on it's third clutch ... because of excessive chatter.  Not good.  Thier oldest Subaru was good, so they bought the next one.  It was trouble.  They bought the third thinking the other was just an oddity, and it was trouble too?  This is why I'd limited myself to Honda and Toyota in the first place.
...

Statistically Subarus are pretty good.  They have had a couple problems- the 2.5 liter motor had head gasket issues for a couple of years starting in '95.  Clutches can be finicky but our '96 (with 2.2 motor) is still on the original.  Being an AWD vehicle it's quite expensive to replace the clutch since there are 3 drive shafts to remove.  

We have an auto trans 2004 Forester XT (Turbo).  It is an awesome tow vehicle except for having too much engine for the radiator.  The non-turbo models shouldn't have this problem.

I strongly suggest upgrading your trailer to include brakes.

[rtt108]

.....
I strongly suggest upgrading your trailer to include brakes.

I didn't see any trailer brakes that would fit on the little 8" wheels on my camper in my Northern Equipment trailer catalog.  I'm not even sure I've ever seen brakes on something that weigh's less than 1000lbs unloaded.

Putting brakes on this little 6 foot box trailer kind of falls into the category of ScoobyDoo's post ... don't you think?

[ScoobyDoo]

Years back, I think about '75 we built a trailer for a brother to pull with his hog. First trip he discovered HD brakes were not up to the task. We built surge brakes to work on the 8in wheels. I don't remember what we used, but if a bunch of stoned, drunck bikers could make it work it should not be very hard.