Another TOWING Question

[jonathan]

As always, i value the advice from the PUT community.

We are thinking about/planning to upgrade from our 2002 popup to a 2008 Flagstaff Shamrock 19 (http://tinyurl.com/2wtah2).

Our tow vehicle is a 2002 Chevy S10 Blazer - rated to tow 5,200 lbs. I think the maximum hitch weight is 350 lbs. Not real sure on the later - do not have my owners manual in front of me.

Shamrock Specs:
Hitch Weight: 161 lbs.
Unit Dry Weight: 3,295 lbs.
GVWR: 4,561 lbs.

We currently have a 2002 Flagstaff 206LTD popup
Base/Dry Hitch Weight: 239 lbs.
Base/Dry Unit Weight: 1,486 lbs.
GVWR: 2,339 lbs.

Let me ramble...

First of all, taking the weight considerations from above, i am guessing we would/will be towing 4,000 - 4,200 lbs. with a hybrid Flagstaff Shamrock. Am i off in this guestimate in your opinion?

Normally, when we go camping, we have a Blazer packed... and i mean packed... to the gills with pillows, coolers, fishing poles, firewood (in the kid's laps), dog, dog bed - you name it and i am sure most have been there. The "people" barely fit! Heads sticking out of the windows and bicycles dangling from the roof.

Our popup (with a 10' box) has very little floor space to stow gear and basically carries the "setup" supplies in a Rubbermaid tub. AND, we basically have everything we need when we leave. We do not haul any water, etc.

With this in mind, does it matter if all of the weight that is in the tow vehicle now, is put into the hybrid (Shamrock)? Does distribution matter?

I don't understand all of this GVR, GVCWR, GTRUV, etc. My thinking is... if you your entire rig weighs 5,000 lbs. right now, it wouldn't matter if you redistributed the weight (from the Blazer to the hybrid - because there isn't room in our PU to stow the gear now).

There are many "features" with this camper and i often wonder if they are included in the weight ratings?

I hope someone understands what i am asking. Right now, we have a deal... and i mean a deal on this Shamrock.

I need your opinions/facts, etc.

Thank you!

[wavery]

As always, i value the advice from the PUT community.

We are thinking about/planning to upgrade from our 2002 popup to a 2008 Flagstaff Shamrock 19 (http://tinyurl.com/2wtah2).

Our tow vehicle is a 2002 Chevy S10 Blazer - rated to tow 5,200 lbs. I think the maximum hitch weight is 350 lbs. Not real sure on the later - do not have my owners manual in front of me.

Shamrock Specs:
Hitch Weight: 161 lbs.
Unit Dry Weight: 3,295 lbs.
GVWR: 4,561 lbs.

We currently have a 2002 Flagstaff 206LTD popup
Base/Dry Hitch Weight: 239 lbs.
Base/Dry Unit Weight: 1,486 lbs.
GVWR: 2,339 lbs.

Let me ramble...

First of all, taking the weight considerations from above, i am guessing we would/will be towing 4,000 - 4,200 lbs. with a hybrid Flagstaff Shamrock. Am i off in this guestimate in your opinion?

Normally, when we go camping, we have a Blazer packed... and i mean packed... to the gills with pillows, coolers, fishing poles, firewood (in the kid's laps), dog, dog bed - you name it and i am sure most have been there. The "people" barely fit! Heads sticking out of the windows and bicycles dangling from the roof.

Our popup (with a 10' box) has very little floor space to stow gear and basically carries the "setup" supplies in a Rubbermaid tub. AND, we basically have everything we need when we leave. We do not haul any water, etc.

With this in mind, does it matter if all of the weight that is in the tow vehicle now, is put into the hybrid (Shamrock)? Does distribution matter?

I don't understand all of this GVR, GVCWR, GTRUV, etc. My thinking is... if you your entire rig weighs 5,000 lbs. right now, it wouldn't matter if you redistributed the weight (from the Blazer to the hybrid - because there isn't room in our PU to stow the gear now).

There are many "features" with this camper and i often wonder if they are included in the weight ratings?

I hope someone understands what i am asking. Right now, we have a deal... and i mean a deal on this Shamrock.

I need your opinions/facts, etc.

Weight is weight. If you have 10K pounds of weight to pull up a hill, it doesn't matter (a whole lot) where it is distributed as long as you don't exceed the max weight in one or both vehicles. It is going to take X amount on energy to move that 10K pounds up that hill.

Now, having said that, I would try to distribute the weight so that neither vehicle is anywhere near it's total capacity. Let's say that you have 900# carrying capacity in the S10 and 900# capacity in the trailer and you have 1200 pounds of gear, passengers and fuel. I would try to put about 600# in each vehicle (include passenger weight in the TV). My guess is, you have been overloading your S10 all along. You might do well to take most of that burden and put it in the trailer. It's all gotta get to the top of that hill at the same time anyway. Just my 2 cents :sombraro:

It seems to me that you have nearly 1500# worth of cargo capacity in your trailer. Just remember, that includes your A/C unit, any extra batteries or propane tanks and any other accessories. Most standard equipment is included in your "Dry weight" I believe. You might want to check with the manufacturer to see exactly what is included in your "Dry weight". I would ask them in writing and no way depend on the dealer to know. If you ask the manufacturer in writing you probably have a 90% chance of getting the correct answer....in writing.

BTW......Congradulations......that's a nice camper. A friend of mine has one. :-()

[GeneF]

GVWR 4561 minus Dry Weight of 3295 equals cargo capacity rating of 1266.


This means that you can put 1266 pounds of stuff in the HTT.  However, you will have to deduct from this if you are carrying water or propane.  Each propane tank weighs about 40 pounds.

Example:  30 gallon tank times 8 pounds per gallon equals  about 240 pounds.

1266 minus 240 pounds leaves you 1026 for other stuff.

GVWR (Gross Vehicle Weight Rating) 4561 is the most that your htt should weigh.

Look inside the HTT, you will most likely find a sticker giving you this kind of information.  Sticker is generally placed on one of the cabinat doors.

Some manufacturers give you the weight of the htt with all of the options and some do not.  Some will state that the weight is as it left the factory including options like a fridge, stove, etc.

You might want to post your question over at Hybrid Explorer.  Plenty of towing questions there for htt.

[wavery]

GVWR 4561 minus Dry Weight of 3295 equals cargo capacity rating of 1266.


This means that you can put 1266 pounds of stuff in the HTT.  However, you will have to deduct from this if you are carrying water or propane.  Each propane tank weighs about 40 pounds.

Example:  30 gallon tank times 8 pounds per gallon equals  about 240 pounds.

1266 minus 240 pounds leaves you 1026 for other stuff.

GVWR (Gross Vehicle Weight Rating) 4561 is the most that your htt should weigh.

Look inside the HTT, you will most likely find a sticker giving you this kind of information.  Sticker is generally placed on one of the cabinat doors.

Some manufacturers give you the weight of the htt with all of the options and some do not.  Some will state that the weight is as it left the factory including options like a fridge, stove, etc.

You might want to post your question over at Hybrid Explorer.  Plenty of towing questions there for htt.

Kinda picky but you should subtract the tongue weight from the trailer weight. That weight is being distributed to the TV and should be considered in the TV weight.

[mlslocks]

Kinda picky but you should subtract the tongue weight from the trailer weight. That weight is being distributed to the TV and should be considered in the TV weight.

Genef explains it the way it is broken down on the weight sticker in the trailer. You don't know your tongue weight until the trailer is loaded and weighed.

[wavery]

Yep....you're right. That's why some people recommend taking your rig to a weigh station after it is loaded and get the weight of each axle. That way, you really have a realistic starting point from where you can redistribute weight.

I actually did that about a year ago. I found it quite helpful. At that time, I was towing with a 2001 Chrysler Concorde so I was really concerned about weight distribution. I found that I could take everything out of my car and put it in the trailer to take the load off of my , rather fragile, TV :sombraro:

[AustinBoston]

As always, i value the advice from the PUT community.

We are thinking about/planning to upgrade from our 2002 popup to a 2008 Flagstaff Shamrock 19 (http://tinyurl.com/2wtah2).

Our tow vehicle is a 2002 Chevy S10 Blazer - rated to tow 5,200 lbs. I think the maximum hitch weight is 350 lbs. Not real sure on the later - do not have my owners manual in front of me.

Let's start here.  There is no way to safely tow a 5,200 lb trailer with only a 350 lb. tongue weight.  This is little more than an educated guess, but I'll bet the tongue weight rating is closer to 600-750 lbs, BUT is limited to 200-300 lbs without a weight distributing hitch.

Shamrock Specs:
Hitch Weight: 161 lbs.
Unit Dry Weight: 3,295 lbs.
GVWR: 4,561 lbs.

Is there a mistype on that tongue weight?  Unless the trailer tongue is very long, you need 10-15% of the actual weight of the trailer on the tongue to avoid trailer sway.  That would mean DRY, this trailer should have 330 lbs on the tongue.

We currently have a 2002 Flagstaff 206LTD popup
Base/Dry Hitch Weight: 239 lbs.
Base/Dry Unit Weight: 1,486 lbs.
GVWR: 2,339 lbs.

This is more in line with what I'd expect.

First of all, taking the weight considerations from above, i am guessing we would/will be towing 4,000 - 4,200 lbs. with a hybrid Flagstaff Shamrock. Am i off in this guestimate in your opinion?

The only way to really know is to put it on a scale.  I have never heard of someone pulling onto a scale and finding out they weigh less than they expected, but I've heard from several that were way over.

Normally, when we go camping, we have a Blazer packed... and i mean packed... to the gills with pillows, coolers, fishing poles, firewood (in the kid's laps), dog, dog bed - you name it and i am sure most have been there. The "people" barely fit! Heads sticking out of the windows and bicycles dangling from the roof.

I'll be that stuff weighs a lot more than you think.  You can overload a blazer...

With this in mind, does it matter if all of the weight that is in the tow vehicle now, is put into the hybrid (Shamrock)? Does distribution matter?

Yes, distribution matters.  In addition to the items you listed, each axle has a maximum weight rating, and you should not exceed that.  We find that what works for us is to put some things in the pop-up and some in the van.

I don't understand all of this GVR, GVCWR, GTRUV, etc. My thinking is... if you your entire rig weighs 5,000 lbs. right now, it wouldn't matter if you redistributed the weight (from the Blazer to the hybrid - because there isn't room in our PU to stow the gear now).

It is important to understand those abbreviations, if only for as long as it takes to figure everything out.  The ratings are based on many factors and on extensive testing done by the manufacturer, and take into account engine power, braking power, strength of drivetrain components, heating factors, what the suspension can withstand (for example, sitting in your driveway, the suspension will take several times the weight it can take when you hit a pot hole).

There are many "features" with this camper and i often wonder if they are included in the weight ratings?

Option weights are never included in the dry weight, and some features included on every camper are considered "options" because if you asked, they would leave it off, but nobody asks.

I hope someone understands what i am asking. Right now, we have a deal... and i mean a deal on this Shamrock.

I need your opinions/facts, etc.

Take the time to look up all of the ratings on both the Blazer and the Shamrock, and type them (or cut & paste) here.  You will then get 5-6 opinions on whether the setup is OK.  Be sure to include each of the following:

GAR or GAWR (Gross Axle Rating or Gross Axle Weight Rating) - There should be three of these (two for the Blazer, and one for the Shamrock).  Also tell us if the Shamrock has one or two axles.  This is the maximum that an individual axle can hold.

GCWR (Gross Combined Weight Rating) - This is the absolute maximum weight of the Blazer plus trailer (including cargo).

Max Tow Rating - This is the heaviest trailer the Blazer can tow.  It assumes there is NOTHING in the blazer except the driver and a tank of gas.

If you can't find any of these, give us what you can find.  Some manufacturers have funny names for their ratings, but essentially mean the same thing.

My gut feel is you are near the edge, so working out the numbers and getting your final setup weighed are important.

Austin

[flyfisherman]

A vehicle's tow rating capacity can be a tricky thing to decipher. All is not always accurately (or completely) disclosed in the rosey sales brochure; and even fully disclosed in the owner's manual. Let me give you an example:

My previous tow vehicle was a 2000 GMC Sonoma (kissin' cousin to the Chevy S-10 pick-up) and it was equiped with a 4.3 V-6, an auto tranny, 3.42 gear ratio and a heavy duty suspension ~ sporting a hefty tow rating of 6400 lbs! Even stated it, too, in the the owner's manual ... but there was this asterisk (*) and down at the bottom of the page it said "see the GMC Trailering Guide". Back to the dealer I go and get this trailering guide and look up my vehicle again. Once more, an asterisk (*), followed by a double asterisk (**).
The first (*) said this towing capacity only applied to the regular cab and there had to be a deduction from that figure if you had an extended cab (which I had). That deduction was 400 lbs, which would leave a 6,000 lb tow capacity, and that's O.K., but what about the double (**)?  Well, that said, any towing weight over 3,500 lbs would have to be done with a weight-distributing hitch; that when using a weight carrying hitch (like I was using, a class III hitch), the towing capacity for the vehicle was 3,500 lbs, and with a max tounge weight of 350 lbs.
I should think your Blazer is in the Sonoma/S-10 pick-up category. And the first  major question (which I have no idea) is if your Blazer can do a weight-distrubuting hitch and what would all that entail.


Fly

[GeneF]

"Option weights are never included in the dry weight, and some features included on every camper are considered "options" because if you asked, they would leave it off, but nobody asks."


Austin


Been doing a lot, a lot, a lot of trailer shopping lately and all of the trailers have had a sticker in one of the cabinets.  They give the weight of the trailer with the options as it leaves the mfg.

Generally it deducts water, propane, etc to give the ccc.

Can be tricky and how accurate the weights are, is another thing.

[jonathan]

Let's start here.  There is no way to safely tow a 5,200 lb trailer with only a 350 lb. tongue weight.  This is little more than an educated guess, but I'll bet the tongue weight rating is closer to 600-750 lbs, BUT is limited to 200-300 lbs without a weight distributing hitch.

Here is a link to Forest River's web site... a floor plan/specs of the 19:
http://tinyurl.com/2wtah2

I have never heard of someone pulling onto a scale and finding out they weigh less than they expected

After reading some of the weight limits in the Blazer's owners manual, i KNOW we are over right now! I don't need a set of scales.

Take the time to look up all of the ratings on both the Blazer and the Shamrock

Here we go:

For the Blazer, this is what is in the owners manual and on the driver's door:

(Owners Manual):
4 wheel drive - 3.08 (axle ratio) - 4,200 lbs. (max trailer weight)
4 wheel drive - 3.42 (axle ratio) - 5,200 lbs. (max trailer weight)
4 wheel drive - 3.73 (axle ratio) - 5,200 lbs. (max trailer weight)
I have no idea what our axle ratio is.

Maximum trailer weight is calculated with driver and one passenger (no weights given). Cargo must be subtracted.

GVW includes curb weight, cargo and people. If you tow a trailer, add tongue load to GVW.

(Driver's Door):
GVWR: 5,350 lbs.
GAWR FRT: 2,800 lbs. (front axle)
GAWR RR: 2,900 lbs. (back axle)
Payload: 1,061 lbs. - maximum load capacity for vehicle (occupants, etc.)

The owners manual states that we should use sway control if trailer weighs more than 2,000 lbs. (our pop up does). Trailer brakes should be used if trailer weighs more than 1,000 lbs. We use/have neither.

The owners manual states, if the trailer weighs more than 3,500 lbs. we should have a weight distributing hitch.

The Shamrock information can be found here:
http://tinyurl.com/2wtah2
This is all the information that i have on it.

All of the brochures, etc. give the same hitch weight.

Also tell us if the Shamrock has one or two axles.

I am pretty sure it has two axles.

GCWR (Gross Combined Weight Rating) - This is the absolute maximum weight of the Blazer plus trailer (including cargo).

I could not find a GCWR anywhere.


Help me out and give me your opinions. After reading all of this and after thinking about all the stuff we pack for a trip... we are WAY over weight with just the popup. This is the craziest, most confusing thing i have ever seen.

Do you guys think a sway bar/distribution hitch plus the Blazer will be ok with a camper of this size? Am i pushing the limit? Am i OVER the limit?

[Jamesdad]

I am also in the market for a hybrid and my tow vehicle is an F-150 with a 5.4 litre Triton V-8 Engine. It is a strong truck and I could tow up to 7,900 lbs per my owners manual. I do not want to use my entire weight limit (including cargo, people, fuel, water, etc..) I am looking for a trailer in the 3,000 to 3,800 range. I want to be able to load up whatever I want and not be close to this weight limit. It gives me a comfort zone where I am not worrying about it and extra power for the mountain grades or whatever else we find. We want a nice trailer but we do not want to come close to our max, I'm sure over time the excessive weight will put alot of wear and tear of your tow vehicle. Mine is used every day and I want to keep it in tip top shape. I hope this helps you, good luck in your purchase and remember, safety first, being over weight is a safety factor. Thats why the truck scales are so strick on semi trucks, they don't want them being over weight, endangering the public. Same thing with us and our vehicles/ trailers.

Jamesdad

[wavery]

To get the axle ratio on your GM vehicle, look in the glove box. You will find a white paper label with about 100 (or more) codes, all listed in numerical/alphabetical order. The are called "RPO Codes". Each vehicle has a unique label that is generated to actually "Build" that respective vehicle.



Find the Code that starts with "G"

GU4 = 3.08
GU6 = 3.42
GS3 = 3.73

Here is a complete list of all (well, most) of the GM RPO codes:

http://www.marshu.com/images-website/car/gm-firebird-camaro-rpo-car-door-manufacturer-codes/gm-firebird-camaro-GM-RPO-car-codes.pdf

Hope that helps :sombraro:

[dademt]

"Option weights are never included in the dry weight, and some features included on every camper are considered "options" because if you asked, they would leave it off, but nobody asks."
 
 
Here is another prime example, my camper unloaded is about 4,000 but when you calculate ( or cheat and look at the sticker inside ) my unloaded weight with just the options installed is 5250#.  And that is without counting 210# of water in the tank.
 
Luckily in my case my vehicle can accomidate much more then that (8,200#).

[jonathan]

Well, you all got close, but no one actually answered my question about towing this Flagstaff beast with a S10 Blazer. So, i took that as a "no".

We are in the process of buying a 1990 Suburban... do you think that will pull 4,500 lbs?

Any advice?

[wavery]

Well, you all got close, but no one actually answered my question about towing this Flagstaff beast with a S10 Blazer. So, i took that as a "no".

We are in the process of buying a 1990 Suburban... do you think that will pull 4,500 lbs?

Any advice?

jonathan,

My son is selling his 1990 Suburban.....I wounder if it's the same one :p

He wasn't real happy with the 12MPG that he got around town and 8MPG towing his boat.

Did you read the other thread that you had going on the exact same subject :confused:
http://www.arveeclub.com/showthread.php?t=62870

If we didn't answer your question (as asked) I'm sorry. We attempted to do so (between the 2 threads). Two threads at the same time make it very confusing.

If you are looking for a definite Yes/NO answer, I don't think that you will get that here. Most of us try to help you learn through the process, as apposed to making your decisions for you.