GVWR vs Tow Rating..

[Nemesis56]

Just got back from looking at  new trucks.  My son is getting his license this fall and I'm thinking of giving him my Sonoma.  Was looking at a '07 Silverado 1500 Ext. Cab.  Everything seemed fine until we started talking about GVWR (5700 lbs) and Trailer Towing Capacity (6500 lbs)  When I asked " How can you have a towing capacity higher than the GVWR? " Sales Expert on towing/trucks said flat out...." Don't worry about GVWR.  Just go with TTC.  That's all you need to know."   Even he was at a loss to explain the differences.  I'm begining to think none of them knew.  I'm probally going to buy the truck or one just like it.  Just irratates me when they treat you like a moron for asking what I thought was an intelligent question.

[ldgregory]

Just got back from looking at  new trucks.  My son is getting his license this fall and I'm thinking of giving him my Sonoma.  Was looking at a '07 Silverado 1500 Ext. Cab.  Everything seemed fine until we started talking about GVWR (5700 lbs) and Trailer Towing Capacity (6500 lbs)  Sales Expert on towing/trucks said flat out...." Don't worry about GVWR.  Just go with TTC.  That's all you need to know."   Even he was at a loss to explain the differences.  I'm begining to think none of them knew.  I'm probally going to buy the truck or one just like it.  Just irratates me when they treat you like a moron for asking what I thought was an intelligent question.

GVWR is Gross Vehicle Weight Rating. That is the max your truck can weigh with people, dogs, gas, payload etc. TTC is the maximum amount the vehicle is designed to tow.

Here's the kicker. You need to know if that number is wet weight or dry weight. Typically it's dry weight, which means the truck has no gas, no people, no gear in the bed, no dogs etc. It's an empty truck. It also usually is based on the base model of the truck, such as no power windows, seats, smallest stock wheels etc. By making the truck weigh less, the TTC goes up.

Here's a couple links that will help:
http://www.rvtowingtips.com/index.html Specifically the "What can I tow"

also look at the weight calculator http://www.klenger.net/arctic-fox/weight/towing-weight-demonstrator.xls

Both of these together will get you straight. You'd be surprised how much weight difference a base model truck and a fully loaded truck (as in options) is, not to mention adding the family, pet, and some stuff in the bed. Your towing capacity goes down quick.

Leif

[wavery]

Just got back from looking at  new trucks.  My son is getting his license this fall and I'm thinking of giving him my Sonoma.  Was looking at a '07 Silverado 1500 Ext. Cab.  Everything seemed fine until we started talking about GVWR (5700 lbs) and Trailer Towing Capacity (6500 lbs)  Sales Expert on towing/trucks said flat out...." Don't worry about GVWR.  Just go with TTC.  That's all you need to know."   Even he was at a loss to explain the differences.  I'm begining to think none of them knew.  I'm probally going to buy the truck or one just like it.  Just irratates me when they treat you like a moron for asking what I thought was an intelligent question.

It does tend to get a bit confussing. See if this link might help. You may need to really study these values for a while to really get a handle on it. Few car salesman would ever understand it.  GCVWR is what you really need to understand when figuring out what you can tow AND carry (as in passengers and camping gear)at the same time.

If you are looking for a new vehicle, you may want to print this and take it with you.
http://archives.zinester.com/26866/78041.html

[ldgregory]

Few car salesman would ever understand it.  GCVWR is what you really need to understand when figuring out what you can tow AND carry (as in passengers and camping gear)at the same time.

Glad you brought that up. I'd forgotten to tell him about GCVWR, although you won't typically find that in the brochure for the vehicle. The link to the weight calculator I provided will calc that out for you too.

Not only don't most of the salepeople understand it, they wouldn't really explain it to you even if they did because that 10,000 pound tow rating suddenly becomes something like 7,500 or 8,000 once you've got all the wet weight figured out.

Not trying to muddy the waters anymore for the OP, but one other thing you'll need to add towards your GVWR is the typical 12% - 15% tongue weight from the towed vehicle (i.e. popup).

Leif.

[wavery]

Glad you brought that up. I'd forgotten to tell him about GCVWR, although you won't typically find that in the brochure for the vehicle. The link to the weight calculator I provided will calc that out for you too.

Not only don't most of the salepeople understand it, they wouldn't really explain it to you even if they did because that 10,000 pound tow rating suddenly becomes something like 7,500 or 8,000 once you've got all the wet weight figured out.

Not trying to muddy the waters anymore for the OP, but one other thing you'll need to add towards your GVWR is the typical 12% - 15% tongue weight from the towed vehicle (i.e. popup).

Leif.

That's sorta correct.

The reason that the MAX tow rating will usually push you past you GCVWR if you are at max GVWR is because the Max Tow Rating is there for people that want to tow, say a big boat but don't carry a lot of gear, therefore they aren't anywhere near their GVWR. In that case, they may be able to tow up to their Max Tow Rating.

The point is, if your TV is empty, other than the driver, you cannot exceed your Max Tow Rating, even if your aren't close to your GCVWR. However, if you are maxed out on your GVWR, it may impact your Max Tow Rating because you cannot exceed your GCVWR under any circumstances.....technically speaking :p

In some cases, you may find that you have a Max Tow Rating of 6500# but because you have maxed out your GVWR, you only have 4,000# left until you hit your GCVWR. In that case, you can only tow 4,000# even though your Max Tow Rating is 6,500#.

As far as your tongue weight is concerned, it really doesn't matter where you put it. If you add it to your GVWR figure, you must subtract it from your towing weight. The bottom line is always your GCVWR. That is the total amount of weight that the entire package puts on the ground combined (without exceeding either your GVWR or your Max Tow Rate).

[Nemesis56]

Strangely, it makes perfect sense.  I understand exactally what y'all are saying.  Thanks for all the info and the explanations.  I had GVWR confused with GCVWR.

[ldgregory]

That's sorta correct. The point is, if your TV is empty, other than the driver, you cannot exceed your Max Tow Rating, even if your aren't close to your GCVWR. However, if you are maxed out on your GVWR, it may impact your Max Tow Rating because you cannot exceed your GCVWR under any circumstances.....technically speaking :p

Yep. Agree 100%. I guess what I was trying to get across is that just because the salesperson says you can tow 10K doesn't mean you don't have to do the math on the rest to make sure you aren't overloading your vehicle.

Where I was going with the tongue weight was that... Well, let's use a real world example. A 2007 Dodge PW QC has a GCVWR of 20,000, a GVWR of 8510, and a max tow of 10,750. For the sake of argument, let's say you max out your GVWR of 8510. If we subtract that from the GCVWR of 20,000 we get 11,490 which is more than our max tow of 10,750. So far so good. Let's say we have a 3,000 lb popup we're wanting to pull. No problem, that's way under our max tow of 10,750, but the (we'll go real conservative) 10% tongue weight has now added 300 pounds on our tow vehicle which now exceeds its GVWR. We're nowhere near our GCVWR or tow capacity but we're definitely in trouble on our GVWR.

Now, the curb weight of this truck is 6,070 and that subtracted from our GVWR is 2,440lbs. In the popup world of camping I think it's relatively safe to say it's an unrealistic scenario that we're going to be able to get that much weight into the truck. Usually where you see people get into trouble with this is when they're landscaping and they've loaded the bed with gravel and are pulling a trailer with flagstone or such.  

I think your average joe in a family of four dragging a boat and loading their camping gear in the bed of the truck might be mislead by the 10K tow rating because they don't realize that everything you put into the truck can definitely impact your towing capacity. That GCVWR is an important key, but so is GVWR. The advertised tow capacity is nice to know but definitely doesn't stand by itself as the dealer told the OP.

BTW, nice to meet you Wavery. I love these kinds of techy discussions!

Leif.

[AustinBoston]

As far as your tongue weight is concerned, it really doesn't matter where you put it. If you add it to your GVWR figure, you must subtract it from your towing weight. The bottom line is always your GCVWR. That is the total amount of weight that the entire package puts on the ground combined (without exceeding either your GVWR or your Max Tow Rate).

Not to further muddy the waters, but each axle also has a gross axle rating (GAR or GAWR), and you can't exceed any of those either.  There are always at least three GAWRs (TV front, TV rear, trailer) when towing.  When figuring axle ratings, it does matter where the tongue weight goes.

You can change where the tongue weight goes by using a weight distributing hitch (aka WDH or equalizing hitch), which moves some of the tongue weight from the rear axle to the TV front axle and the trailer axle(s).  Whether or not you are using a WDH, you can not exceeed any of the GAWRs.

This complexity is just one of the reasons so many of us urge everyone to get your setup weighed.

Austin

[Nemesis56]

The advertised tow capacity is nice to know but definitely doesn't stand by itself as the dealer told the OP.

BTW, nice to meet you Wavery. I love these kinds of techy discussions!

Leif.

There are a lot of knowelegble people on here that know their stuff.  That's why I asked for clarification.  It took about 2 mins to realize that the salesman was winging it and making it up as he went.  He even went as far as getting the resident expert involved .  When he gave me that dumba$$ remark I saw right then he knew less than I did about towing.  I understand the basics and actually learned quite bit from our discussion here. I reaaly think that auto dealerships as a whole are giving alot of mis-information or outright wrong info to their customers.  When I bought my new boat 3 years ago, the marina had a guy come out look my TV over and then we went and looked at boats.  Got all the weight and ratings and actually had a manual lisiting all kinds of info.  I was upgrading from an older smaller boat and they matched what feels and tows like a perfect setup.  They explained alot of things, some of which I knew already. When they were all finished and the boat was hooked to the truck, they brought us out and said .."  Look how your truck dosen't sag " and proceeded to un hitch it to show it only moved maybe an inch.  Said.."Look how level everything is", and had a level on the trialer tounge.  About the only time I know it's back there is starting out, with the initial drag, but rolling along or braking you don't even know it's there.

[wynot]

Not only don't most of the salepeople understand it, they wouldn't really explain it to you even if they did because that 10,000 pound tow rating suddenly becomes something like 7,500 or 8,000 once you've got all the wet weight figured out.
 

Having been on the sales side, it gets a little bit trickier, because people tend to glaze over in the discussion.  I always tried to simplify the discussion AND ensure that the person wouldn't be in an overload condition (by suggesting a smaller camper or a larger tow vehicle, for instance, if the situation warranted it).
 
Bubbas with diesel pickemups were the absolute worst to rationalize max ratings with, because they always dismissed that their truck would possibly have limits.  They insisted there wasn't nuthin' out there that their truck couldn't pull - it's a DEEEEEZZZEELL.

[AustinBoston]

Bubbas with diesel pickemups were the absolute worst to rationalize max ratings with, because they always dismissed that their truck would possibly have limits.  They insisted there wasn't nuthin' out there that their truck couldn't pull - it's a DEEEEEZZZEELL.

Wonder if this had a DEEEEEZZZEELL:
Snope's Lumber Car

Austin

[ldgregory]

Wonder if this had a DEEEEEZZZEELL:
Snope's Lumber Car

Wonder if a couple helper springs would have helped level that out a bit for 'em!

Leif.

[ldgregory]

Having been on the sales side, it gets a little bit trickier, because people tend to glaze over in the discussion.  

Bubbas with diesel pickemups were the absolute worst to rationalize max ratings with, because they always dismissed that their truck would possibly have limits.

While I can understand that sympathetically (I'm an IT guy, try explaining why right-clicks are context sensitive and you don't get the same options depending on where you click), a nice dumbed down "See Spot Run" booklet going over the basics should be a requirement.

My wife was an ADA prosecutor in the DAs office for a number of years in DWI and Great Bodily Harm. She prosecuted a few people (towers) responsible for vehicular accidents resulting in death. In most cases people were pulling a few thousand more than their tow vehicle was rated for.

I'll concede it's sometimes tough to calculate all the angles on your towing setup, but I can guarantee you this. If you're involved in an accident where someone gets hurt, the DAs office and/or the other person's attorney is going to calculate it out to the pound.

And I hear you about the bubbas.. I know a few personally! :-)

Leif