200 Starcraft Spacestar too heavy for Honda Pilot?

[wadedrow]

As the title says, I have an 04 Pilot as a TV.  I am looking at purchasing a 2000 starcraft spacestar from a private seller.  The seller does not know the total weight of the camper.  He estimates it to be around 4000lbs.  I think this is a little high and was wondering if anyone here knows the actual estimated weight?  I am a newbie at popups but have wanted one for a while.  This would be for my family of 4 plus cargo.  My owners manual estimates the max trailer @5500 or 3500 fully loaded with 4 people plus cargo.  Tongue weight is listed at 450.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Wade

[surffishjimmy]

Wade,

I just bought a new to me PU last week and I have a 2006 Pilot that will be my TV.   4,000 seems way to heavy for the Starcraft Spacestar.   Not many PU's available that weight that much, maybe some of the PU's with the metal decking in the front might weight that much..  

If it you are correct and the tongue weight is 450 I think it would be too heavy to tow.   I am going to be about 3,000lbs loaded and a tongue weight in  the 200's.  What I am going to do is to add air bags to my rear springs so that the rear end of my TV doesn't go down to much.  I am not that familiar with the Spacestar but maybe you can add a weight distribution hitch like an equilizer hitch.  

I would first start by calling Starcraft (260) 593-2550 and ask them the actual dry weight of the PU and then add in the weight of any option that the PU has.   I would be surprised if fully loaded it is over 3,500.  

I hope that it works out for you.  Keep us posted.

[flyfisherman]

Tow rating for your Honda, without the towing pkg, is 3500lbs.

Base dry weight of the Spacestar is 2370 lbs  ~ a call to Starcraft would get the GVWR (total weight of camper and cargo). I'd guess it's somewhere around 2900/3000 lbs.

I'll leave the more exact recomendations to those on the board who have experience with the Pilot's towing capacity. But as for me, based on the numbers and my experience with towing, I'd say that was too much camper for the vehicle ~ especially by the time all is loaded down with  food, clothing, all the camping bric-a-brac, the dog and whoever alse is doing along.



Fly

[bblake]

Referencing TrailerLife.com TV ratings, the 04 Pilot can tow 3,500 lbs, as long as the camper has electric or surge brakes, load distribution hitch and a transmission cooler.    If you are at 3500 lbs with the pup, and then add in kitchen, food, water, propane, clothes, etc, you could be pushing several hundred pounds over that.

Even if you were close to the 3500 lbs limit for the Pilot, you have to know that this is hard on the vehicle, especially if you will be going up steep inclines.

You might want to look for a TV with a bit more capacity.

The link for TV ratings is here:  http://www.trailerlife.com/output.cfm?id=42175

Best of luck.

[RickWest]

I have a 2007 Honda Pilot.  The tow ratings are 3500 pounds for a full-height trailer and 4500 pounds for a boat trailer.  The reason for the lower number on full-height trailer is due to the increased drag.  Over the past 2 years I have towed a Fleetwood Williamsburg which had a gross vehicle weight of 3500.  I just traded it for a Fleetwood Niagara which has a curb weight of 3275 and a gross weight of 3950.  My Honda dealer said the tow rating for a pop up camper is 4000 pounds, because it does not have the drag of a full-height camper, but would have a little more drag than a boat trailer.  Having road tested the Niagara, the Pilot tows it very well.  On normal trips, I'd estimate it will weigh a bit more than 3500.  Good luck.

[wadedrow]

Thanks for all the replies guys!  We ended up finding a 1998 coleman bayside with a slide.  No shower/toilet, but we are going to add a porta potti for now.  Dry weight on the bayside is 2600 and the gross is 3500.  I also called my honda mechanic and he reiterated what Rick said, a 3500 hundred pound pop-up should not be a problem.  The PUP did come with a sway bar and brakes, so I have to get the appropriate hitch and brake controller.  Are there any favorites out there?

I live in North East GA near the mountains so we will mainly use it this year for short trips to the State parks up there.  I do plan on getting a full size truck next year to use as a tow vehicle so we can make trips to the beach and such.

We really can't wait to take this to Unicoi!

Thanks again for all your help!

One other question, this PUP comes with a converter system but no battery and it does not look like there is room on the tongue area to put one. Would it be possible to put one in the front storage area?

Wade

[surffishjimmy]

Wade,

As I said in my previous post I am also new to towing and will be towing a similar weight camper with a 2006 Honda Pilot.   They do not make a wiring kit for the Pilot so your shop will have to piece something together.   I am getting airbags put in so that the rear does not sag too much, also I will be using the Prodigy P3 brake controller which is currently the best on the market.   It might be overkill but I purchased it online for $119.   I will let you know within a wk or so how it all works out.

[wavery]

The tow rating on your Honda Pilot (or most other vehicles) is based on the max that vehicle can tow with only the driver and 1/2 tank of gas.

You should really find out what the GCWR (Gross Combined Weight Rating) is for that vehicle. The GCWR includes the TV, passengers, fuel, cargo and fully loaded trailer. That's the total weight burden that your TV must be able to stop within a regulated distance.

Once you have that, you can subtract the estimated weight of your vehicle, passengers and cargo to find your true towing capacity with a loaded vehicle.

The tongue weight of your trailer should be a minimum of 10% - 15% of the trailer weight. If your loaded trailer is 3500# your tongue weight should be just over 350#.

The Curb weight on your Pilot is 4,341 lbs. Add 350# tongue weight + 600# passengers + 300# cargo and you are still well below your GVWR of 5952# but I'll bet that your GCWR is around ~8000# (the 2009 Pilot is rated at 8466 but it has a lower curb weight and higher HP rating).

Curb weight..................  4341
Passengers & Cargo.......... 900
Trailer loaded..................3500
__________________________
Total weight burden.........8741

I'd say that you are really pushing the envelope and should definitely find out what your GCWR is. It should be in your owner's manual. If it isn't, Honda should supply you with that # if you give them your VIN.

I'm not saying that you should or shouldn't tow that weight. All I'm saying is that you should have the correct information so that you are informed about where you stand with that TV. It may make a difference in the way that you drive the vehicle. Ignorance can be your worst enemy.

[coach]

Honda GCWR

[wavery]

Honda GCWR

Great find coach.........
This is a good article to describe GCWR:
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/auto-parts/towing/towing-capacity/vehicle%20/gcwr.htm

This is a perfect example of why you should never trust tow ratings.

2006 Pilot GCWR.....................7914

Curb weight........................ - 4341
Trailer weight loaded............ - 3500

Weight left for pass & cargo... 0073#

Houston...........we have a problem.

[surffishjimmy]

Wayne, thanks for all the info on tow ratings.  You have enlightened me on the differences between GVWR and GCWR and I appreciate it.   You mentioned not to trust vehicle tow ratings, I will add also not to trust many things that you read on some websites.   I was a bit nervous when I read on howstuffworks that a 2006 Pilot GCWR was only 7,914 and the 2007 was 9,700.   Seemed odd to me since nothing on the Pilot had changed for those years.  I just got off the phone with Honda Corporate in California and then confirmed that the 2006 Pilots GCWR is also 9,700 not the 7,914 that they list on howstuffworks.   I also asked for Wade what the GCWR for the 2004 was and it is also 9,700.    Honda also said these numbers are for a TV with the proper towing equipment and fluids in the TV,  meaning transmission cooler and power steering cooler.  

This is why this site is so great because fellow campers can bounce things off of each other like this.   Thanks again Wayne and others for all the info.

[coach]

The owner's manual is the best place for this info!

*Towing requires installation of power steering fluid- and automatic tranmission fluid-cooler, both available exclusively from your Honda dealer.Premuim unleaded fuel is recommended when towing above 3500 lbs. Capacity of 4500 lbs. is for boat trailers and 3500 lbs. for all other trailers. Refer to the owner's manual for additional towing information.
A vin # is usually required for a dealer to look up/determine the tow rating, trucks with different engine options, chasis configurations, bed length, rear axle ratios,... Makes for an interesting look up table!

Other vehicles with less options get one rating

[flyfisherman]

You mentioned not to trust vehicle tow ratings, I will add also not to trust many things that you read on some websites.   I was a bit nervous when I read on howstuffworks that a 2006 Pilot GCWR was only 7,914 and the 2007 was 9,700.   Seemed odd to me since nothing on the Pilot had changed for those years.  I just got off the phone with Honda Corporate in California and then confirmed that the 2006 Pilots GCWR is also 9,700 not the 7,914 that they list on howstuffworks.   I also asked for Wade what the GCWR for the 2004 was and it is also 9,700.    Honda also said these numbers are for a TV with the proper towing equipment and fluids in the TV,  meaning transmission cooler and power steering cooler.  

To be sure a lot of misiformation abounds on websites out there in regard to towing specs and such. I checked on the HowStuffWorks for my '02 Sierra and the site only lists back to '06, and then it shows the GCWR at 8361. Might be for maybe a standard shift V-6 of that year, but my owner's manual shows my  little V-8, auto tranny Sierra to be 11000 ... that's 2639 difference!  Maybe they are listing just the minimal for each model.

I'm not so quick to dismiss the manufacturer's tow ratings. They are a good quick reference when shopping for a vehicle. For example my truck has a tow rating of 6500 and if I were to go shopping for another TV and say I came onto something with a 3500 rating ... it would then require some in depth looking into. But then even these manufacturer's tow ratings require some checking into. For example, a previous TV, a GMC Sonoma smaller sized truck, had almost as high a tow rating as the present full sized Sierra (one of the things that gave it such a high rating was it sported the heavy duty suspension). However, you had to read the "fine print" in the GMC trailer towing guide (which I got from the dealer) to get a better understanding ... with a weight-carrying hitch, i.e., like a draw bar class III hitch, the tow rating was only 3500 lbs; for higher loads a weight-distribting hitch was required.

Besides knowing the max tow rating for my Sierra pick'em-up along with the GCWR, also know the axle & spring capacities, front and rear, and the tire load capacity of the truck. Knowing all these numbers is great but they have to be put to use and to that end I have had the truck and popup weighed when everything was all loaded up for a long distant haul. Had just the front axle of the truck weighed, then just the rear and next the entire truck unhitched. Also had the PU weighed alone and then hitched to the truck. Though sometimes  "things" get added (I tote a lot of jun... eh, stuff), I have a pretty good idea of what kind of weight I'm dealing with.

Should also mention that the PU is a smaller 8' box Starcraft ... with a listed GVWR of 2200 (however, I never exceed the tire capacity of 2090, PERIOD), and needless to say I have much towing capacity to spare, with the truck capable of whistling everything down the pike with ease. But I never forget for a minute that I have a ton of trailer riding on a little 2" ball just a few inches behind the rear bumper ... and a ton is a ton is a ton. Safety is my primary concern and I try and drive like it is.



Fly

[weathertop]

I never forget for a minute that I have a ton of trailer riding on a little 2" ball just a few inches behind the rear bumper

I follow your lead, flyfisherman, in maintaining a healthy respect for the 3000 lbs I'm towing.  Easy does it.

By the way, does that 2200 GVWR for your trailer also include the 200 pounds that ought to be sitting on the hitch, being carried by the tow vehicle?  If so, then that should give you back your safety margin for your tires.

[flyfisherman]

I follow your lead, flyfisherman, in maintaining a healthy respect for the 3000 lbs I'm towing.  Easy does it.

By the way, does that 2200 GVWR for your trailer also include the 200 pounds that ought to be sitting on the hitch, being carried by the tow vehicle?  If so, then that should give you back your safety margin for your tires.

The GVWR rating no doubt is based on a 2000 lb axle/suspension capacity, calculating that 10% of the weight (200 lbs) will be carried by the tow vehicle, with the tire load capacity falling in the middle of that extra 200 lbs. However, I never exceed the max tire load capacity. The 12X5.30 LRC tires are rated to carry 1045 lbs @ 80psi and that is exactly what I run them at, making the total load capacity of 2090, which I NEVER exceed. I call it "Fly's GVWR".