Economy helping us

[dthurk]

A recent thread elsewhere on this forum is asking what we've done to help the economy.  Several posters have indicated making some rather significant expenditures that might do that.  My question here would be...What has the economy ever done to help us?  It's a logical and legitimate question.  If we help the economy, why should not the economy return the favor and help us at some point in time?  Has it ever happened?  Would consistent pay raises be an indication of this happening?  A low unemployment rate?  So, how do you think this might happen that the economy would help us?  What might you all think about this?

[Gracy]

Okay heres my stab at an answer....... the way I help the economy and the economy helps me is by offering sales and coupons for things.  If something is offered at a good/ affordable deal then I help the economy by making my purchase.  Does that make sense?

[austinado16]

Buying things isn't going to help this economy.  That's why we're in the state we're in right now.......we've become a consumer economy, instead of a manufacturing economy.

Buying a monster TV that was made in a village in Mexico or an industrial ghetto in China or Taiwan, doesn't help our economy....other than some 19yr old at Best Buy continues to be employed at minimum wage.

The economy "should" be helping us by providing jobs and careers.  The government "should" be helping the economy by making sure that jobs stay here in America.......you want to sell something in the USA, then you better build it here.  We intern would be helping the economy by working and producing products to a standard that is so good, the products want to be purchased.

Use the model from the Great Depression in the '30s.  The government tried to put people to work, building this country.  Of course WWII helped that effort out tremendously, and then after the war people went to work, started companies, bought homes and cars, and other goods.  It was made here, and bought here, and people weren't running up umpteen thousand dollars in CC debt, so they could live better than their wage allowed.

That's my 2 cents worth.

[CajunCamper]

Buying things isn't going to help this economy.  That's why we're in the state we're in right now.......we've become a consumer economy, instead of a manufacturing economy.

Buying a monster TV that was made in a village in Mexico or an industrial ghetto in China or Taiwan, doesn't help our economy....other than some 19yr old at Best Buy continues to be employed at minimum wage.

The economy "should" be helping us by providing jobs and careers.  The government "should" be helping the economy by making sure that jobs stay here in America.......you want to sell something in the USA, then you better build it here.  We intern would be helping the economy by working and producing products to a standard that is so good, the products want to be purchased.

Use the model from the Great Depression in the '30s.  The government tried to put people to work, building this country.  Of course WWII helded that effort out tremendously, and then after the war people went to work, started companies, bought homes and cars, and other goods.  It was made here, and bought here, and people weren't running up umpteen thousand in CC debt so they could live better than their wage allowed.

That's my 2 cents worth.

I couldn't have said it better.

CajunCamper

[Gracy]

Buying things isn't going to help this economy.  That's why we're in the state we're in right now.......we've become a consumer economy, instead of a manufacturing economy.

Buying a monster TV that was made in a village in Mexico or an industrial ghetto in China or Taiwan, doesn't help our economy....other than some 19yr old at Best Buy continues to be employed at minimum wage.

The economy "should" be helping us by providing jobs and careers.  The government "should" be helping the economy by making sure that jobs stay here in America.......you want to sell something in the USA, then you better build it here.  We intern would be helping the economy by working and producing products to a standard that is so good, the products want to be purchased.

Use the model from the Great Depression in the '30s.  The government tried to put people to work, building this country.  Of course WWII helded that effort out tremendously, and then after the war people went to work, started companies, bought homes and cars, and other goods.  It was made here, and bought here, and people weren't running up umpteen thousand in CC debt so they could live better than their wage allowed.

That's my 2 cents worth.

Those are all great points and I totally agree

[motoboss2002]

Hi,
 
Interesting indeed. Here is my take - as the instigator of the 'previous thread jumpstarting the economy by spending some money'

Yes we are all guilty of participating in the consumer society- some more than others I might add. In my opinion it's an easy decision: if you can afford it, it's OK to buy it; if you cannot, wait a bit and save more or at least use credit wisely. That my friends is what the economy has done for us. Extend credit and then some.
Unfortunately for some folks, enough is/was never enough. Throw in a few unscrupolous mortgage brokers, credit card approvers, and other commissioned sweet talkers and bingo, the stage is set for collapse.

Envy and greed will always, yes always, lead to a downfall.

Here is my final thought. Consensus seems to be to produce and buy American. Let me tell you it's hard to do. But you could start by calling/emailing your bank, ISP, insurance company, help desk, ... and letting them know you don't appreciate someone answering the phone in a call center in Bangalore India. You could ask your grocery store to stock up on local produce. You could give your business to local mom and pop stores rather than big chains.  You want jobs, services, manufactoring to come back to the USA, ask for it and demand it and vote with your spending power. Trust me, the goverment isn't gonna do it for you and neither is corporate America.

Once cent at a time does it. So please do spend a little money if you can and try to spend it into our own (local) economy.

All the best to you guys!

-Christian.

[wavery]

There is one reason and one reason only that America is not a major manufacturer in the global competition for market share.......IT'S THE UNIONS......
If you want to "Buy American", you'd better be prepared to pay a premium price for an inferior product. All this talk that "American workers are the best in the world" is a bunch of crap. If that were true, we wouldn't be having this discussion. American products fall far short in quality and way too high in price. That is why AMERICANS are buying Japanese, European and ....yes....dare I say.....Korean and Chinese products, including cars.

We have an administration (or should I say a President) that is hell bent at controlling the auto industry and keeping the unions alive at a time that the manufacturers are desperately trying to get out from under the unions so that they can compete and keep our country alive.

We won't buy their cars because they are over priced and poorly built but the gvm't wants to interfere and keep the Unions (not the companies) alive at the expense to tax payers. How the hell is that going to work?

If you want the economy to help us.......vote with your dollars and your letters. Tell the gvm't to stay the hell out of private enterprise and don't spend your $ on any cars until the US can compete. We CANNOT compete at the current labor rate to build automobiles (or anything else).

The US wanted a global economy.....well, we got it and we can't compete. Until we are willing to live on the wages that the rest of the world is making, we will not compete......either that or we close the doors.


OH PLEASE...........DON'T GET ME STARTED :swear: ........UGH......It's just simple math stupid.....

[austinado16]

Wayne and Christian, I totally agree.

It's really a screwed situation.  On the one had, people need to get a fair wage, so they can live where they work, raise families, buy homes and cars and other stuff, send kids to college, retire, etc.  People also need to be treated and "worked" a certain way where they work.  Those things need to be "protected," but the way it's been done by unions has broken the back of this country.

Let's face it, if I owned a car company and the union was forcing me to pay people $$$$$$/hr and on top of that the EPA was making me take care of pollution, and I was dealing with a dozen or so other regulatory factors (or a hundred, or whatever) If I found out some village in Mexico would give me the land, build me a factory for 10cents/sq.ft., provide an army of hungry workers at $/week who were easily trained and detail oriented, and I could dump my pollution into the air and ground........guess where my cars would be built?  

You're right, it is simple math, I certainly don't have a solution, and our situation isn't going to change any time soon.

[wavery]

Wayne and Christian, I totally agree.

It's really a screwed situation.  On the one had, people need to get a fair wage, so they can live where they work, raise families, buy homes and cars and other stuff, send kids to college, retire, etc.  People also need to be treated and "worked" a certain way where they work.  Those things need to be "protected," but the way it's been done by unions has broken the back of this country.

Let's face it, if I owned a car company and the union was forcing me to pay people $$$$$$/hr and on top of that the EPA was making me take care of pollution, and I was dealing with a dozen or so other regulatory factors (or a hundred, or whatever) If I found out some village in Mexico would give me the land, build me a factory for 10cents/sq.ft., provide an army of hungry workers at $/week who were easily trained and detail oriented, and I could dump my pollution into the air and ground........guess where my cars would be built?  

You're right, it is simple math, I certainly don't have a solution, and our situation isn't going to change any time soon.

You know....you're right. The problem is in the interpretation of "people need to get a fair wage, so they can live where they work, raise families, buy homes and cars and other stuff, send kids to college, retire, etc".

Americans feel a certain "Entitlement" to be able to live in a 3400sq ft home with hardwood floors, custom ceramic tile everywhere, granite and S/s steel all over the place.......then......they are average. Does the rest of the world live like that??   NOOOOOOOO!!! If they did, cars would average $200K instead of $40K.....I can't even believe either of those numbers.

The bottom line is, in order for America to compete on a global basis, we MUST cut our standard of living.

It's not about polluting or gvm't regulations........all that stuff is manageable. The freaking unions have become nothing more than organized crime syndicates and they are holding industry hostage.

It's true that the unions were needed at one point in our history. Then they got the thirst for control and greed. They have been ruining our country ever since.

[austinado16]

It's not about polluting or gvm't regulations........all that stuff is manageable. The freaking unions have become nothing more than organized crime syndicates and they are holding industry hostage.

It's true that the unions were needed at one point in our history. Then they got the thirst for control and greed. They have been ruining our country ever since.

Agreed.  And in many places where these factories (for example) were/are located, homes were dirt cheap, and yet the unions were forcing wages that were well above the cost of living.  Now the jobs are gone.....been shipped to Mexico, China, and anywhere else....and what are those unions doing for the 10's of thousands out of work.

And it's not just "factories" per se.  It's everywhere, where a product could be outsourced for pennies on the dollar.  What's it cost to make a pair of Nike shoes?  10cents maybe?  And then they get sold here for $75.

[Shredder]

I can not disagree more with the union rants. Unions are simply a group of people banded together for a common purpose. The USA is a union. Unions are not evil in themselves, but they can be a convenient whipping post. As far as I know not one union person engineered a car, ran a company, or syphoned off profits, for personal use, or gave health care comapnies free rain. They were just the working stiffs who put these ill considered cars together, not the genius behind them. When union membership was at it's highest the economy was going great, the unions decline has been mirrored by the economy. Yes there was period when the quick buck was made a short time ago when we fell asleep, when walmart crept in, when factories shut down and jobs moved overseas, but now those chickens have come to roost. Did prices come down when comapanies moved over seas? Did prices come down when union membership declined? You might feel better by dragging a middle class worker into a lower class, or blaming a union boogeyman, but is this what we want? Will this blame game accomplish anything? Why no rant about the greedy CEO's who raided the company coffers while making millions by running the companies into the ground, or us shareholders who looked the other way because of a high stock market. Plenty of blame to go around, we all have some responsibility in this mess. We are paying for cheap chinese goods at walmart with low paying jobs, very little manufacturing capacity, health care run amuck, cars we can not afford, ect. Low taxes brought us education reductions so that we now have fallen globally, some cities graduate less than half of their high school kids. Luckily we have a young president, who happens to be sharp as a whip, and if we are smart will follow his lead and try to get back the USA we used to know, really we do not have much of an alternative......shredder

[austinado16]

Of course there are umpteen other factors....factors that you and I don't even know about.  For example, look into the "World Trade Organization" and see what they've been up to since WWII.

I certainly don't claim to know all the angles, but I do think unions have broken this country's back........and I'm not saying people shouldn't earn a good wage.  Go where union work is being done, and you might see a pace set by the workers that is styfling production.  Give you a quick example: my brother worked for Caterpillar during a strike.  The union workers down stream from him on the assembly line were ready to kill him (and were complaining to management) because he was producing too much, making them look bad, and making them have to either work harder, or jamb up the assembly line.

And like I said, it goes way deeper than unions.  There are trade agreements that are killing us, cheap foreign labor that we can't dream to compete with, corporate greed(like you mentioned).....I mean, why can't Nike make their shoes in Oregon where they started, and pay $5 to have a pair of shoes made, and still sell them for $75?  My guess is, the fat cats at the top, and the share holders wouldn't stand for the "pay cut."

What about the Walmart game?  They demand that every company wanting to sell in their stores, have the products made in China.  What kind of an American company demands that?  And how do you compete with that?  There's no way, they're too powerful.  It would literally take government intervention.

This a huge and very complex problem, and I don't see it going away, nor do I see our president being able to do anything about it.  He's one guy, the system is controlled by corporations and CEO's that are either pulling his puppet strings or would eat him for lunch, and the old guard is simply not going to roll over and force any changes.

[wavery]

I can not disagree more with the union rants. Unions are simply a group of people banded together for a common purpose. The USA is a union. Unions are not evil in themselves, but they can be a convenient whipping post. As far as I know not one union person engineered a car, ran a company, or syphoned off profits, for personal use, or gave health care comapnies free rain. They were just the working stiffs who put these ill considered cars together, not the genius behind them. When union membership was at it's highest the economy was going great, the unions decline has been mirrored by the economy. Yes there was period when the quick buck was made a short time ago when we fell asleep, when walmart crept in, when factories shut down and jobs moved overseas, but now those chickens have come to roost. Did prices come down when comapanies moved over seas? Did prices come down when union membership declined? You might feel better by dragging a middle class worker into a lower class, or blaming a union boogeyman, but is this what we want? Will this blame game accomplish anything? Why no rant about the greedy CEO's who raided the company coffers while making millions by running the companies into the ground, or us shareholders who looked the other way because of a high stock market. Plenty of blame to go around, we all have some responsibility in this mess. We are paying for cheap chinese goods at walmart with low paying jobs, very little manufacturing capacity, health care run amuck, cars we can not afford, ect. Low taxes brought us education reductions so that we now have fallen globally, some cities graduate less than half of their high school kids. Luckily we have a young president, who happens to be sharp as a whip, and if we are smart will follow his lead and try to get back the USA we used to know, really we do not have much of an alternative......shredder

Shredder......sit down and do the math.......

When the economy was going strong, the unions squeezed industry for a bigger piece of the pie. Industry had to comply with union demands or face a strike. Execs still had to answer to stock holders so cuts had to be made in product design and manufacturing procedures. As these cuts in manuf costs were made, the quality of the product declined and sales went with them.

As sales declined, industry tried to negotiate with the unions and the unions refused. Now, each manufacturer is faced with breaking the union or going BK.

As for CEOs with big salaries and corporate jets........that's what it takes to attract the talent needed to run these companies. All salaries and benefits have to be approved by the Board of Directors and share holders. You do what it takes to attract top performers. Does this make a dent in the bottom line of a multi-billion dollar corp like GM or Ford.....hell no. However, getting the wrong person in that position can be disastrous to the bottom line. This is what we call "Capatalism"......If GM went out looking for a CEO and offered $500,000 a year, who do you think would apply for the job? Yes, there would be thousands of applications but would they be proven, top performers?? Not a chance. Do I like the outrageous compensation that these guys get? Not really but if I am a share holder they better have the best performers that $ can buy or I take my $ and buy part of a company that does perform.

What makes a huge difference in operating costs is $10 an hour more for 20,000 workers. This equates to a cost of half a billion dollars a year.

Now, I don't hear many people talking about the salaries, benefits and private jets for Union leaders...........where do you think all that $ comes from? The sky? Nope, it comes from union members that must demand a higher wage so that they can pay their dues. Where does that come from?

Trust me...GM and Ford DO NOT want $ from the government to continue in business. That is NOT a solution to a lack of sales or operating costs of these companies. GM and Ford will go into BK....it is inevitable. At that time, all employees will be fired and sent home and their jobs will be offered at a fair wage......non-union. Any other solution or government medaling will merely prolong the agony and increase the pain to our children and grandchildren as they pay back the trillions of dollars owed.....in my mind, that's not an acceptable solution.

[austinado16]

Here's an example of why unions aren't working.  Just got an email from a buddy who works for ATT.  He tells me their contract is up in April and they are planning to strike.

IMO, it's that kind of b@ll busting mentality that is killing this country.  It blows my mind that in today's economy a group of people would consider striking........What a person rather have, $25-30/hr plus benefits, retirement, all the overtime they can stand, and a career?  Or nothing, and join the ranks of a couple million people who are out of work right now?

My buddy should feel lucky to have a job, let alone be on the gravy train at the phone company.  Instead, he's cavalier and thinks ATT owes him something, and the union will go knocking heads around for him.  What a joke.

[CajunCamper]

Check out what this guy wrote.

As a supplier for the Big 3 this man received a  letter from the President of GM North America requesting support for the  bail out program.

First, this is the letter he got from GM to  which his subsequent response is directed:

Dear Employees and  Suppliers,


Congress and the current Administration will  soon determine whether to provide immediate support to the domestic auto  industry to help it through one of the most difficult economic times in  our nation's history. Your elected officials must hear from all of us  now on why this support is critical to our continuing the progress we  began prior to the global financial crisis.


As an employee or supplier, you have a lot at  stake and continue to be one of our most effective and passionate  voices.. I know GM can count on you to have your voice heard.   Thank you for your urgent action and ongoing support.  


Troy Clarke - President
 General Motors  North America


 Response from:

 Gregory Knox, Pres.

  Knox Machinery  Company   Franklin ,  Ohio  


Gentlemen:

In response to your request to contact legislators  and ask for a bailout for the Big Three automakers please consider the  following, and please pass my thoughts on to Troy Clark, President of  General Motors North America.  


Politicians and Management of the Big 3 are  both infected with the same entitlement mentality that has spread like  cancerous germs in UAW halls for the last countless decades, and whose  plague is now sweeping this nation, awaiting our new "messiah",  Pres-elect Obama, to wave his magic wand and make all our problems go  away, while at the same time allowing our once great nation to keep  "living the dream". Believe me folks, The dream is over!    


This dream where we can ignore the consumer for  years while management myopically focuses on its personal rewards  packages at the same time that our factories have been filled with the  worlds most overpaid, arrogant, ignorant and laziest entitlement minded  "laborers" without paying the price for these atrocities. This dream  where you still think the masses will line up to buy our products for  ever and ever.


Don't even think about telling me I'm  wrong.  Don't accuse me of not knowing of what I speak.  I  have called on Ford, GM, Chrysler, TRW, Delphi, Kelsey Hayes, American  Axle and countless other automotive OEM's throughout the  Midwest  during the past 30 years and what I've seen over those years in these  union shops can only be described as  disgusting.  


Troy Clarke, President of General Motors North  America, states: "There is widespread sentiment throughout this country,  and our government, and especially via the news media, that the current  crisis is completely the result of bad management which it certainly is  not."


You're right Mr. Clarke,  it's not JUST  management.


How about the electricians who walk around the  plants like lords in feudal times, making people wait on them for  countless hours while they drag ass so they can come in on the weekend  and make double and triple time for a job they easily could have done  within their normal 40 hour work week?


How about the line workers who threaten newbies  with all kinds of scare tactics for putting out too many parts on a  shift and for being too productive?
(We certainly must not expose  those lazy bums who have been getting overpaid for decades for their  horrific underproduction, must we?!?)


Do you folks really not know about this  stuff?!?  How about this great sentiment abridged from Mr.   Clarke's sad plea: "over the last few years, we have closed the quality  and efficiency gaps with our competitors."  What the hell has    Detroit been doing for the last 40 years?!?  Did we really JUST  wake up to the gaps in quality and efficiency between us and them?  

                             The K-car vs. the Accord?

                             The Pinto vs.  the Civic?!?

Do I need to go on?  What a joke!  


We are living through the inevitable outcome of  the actions of the   United States auto industry for decades.   It's time to pay for your sins,   Detroit .


I attended an economic summit last week where  brilliant economist, Alan Beaulieu, from the   Institute of    Trend Research , surprised the crowd when he said he would not have  given the banks a penny of "bailout money".    

"Yes, he said, this would cause short term  problems," but despite what people like politicians and corporate  magnates would have us believe, the sun would in fact rise the next day.  and the following very important thing would happen.. . where there had  been greedy and sloppy banks, new efficient ones would pop up.   That is how a free market system works.  It does work if we would  only let it work."


But for some nondescript reason we are now  deciding that the rest of the world is right and that capitalism doesn't  work - that we need the government to step in and "save  us".


Save us my ass, Hell - we're nationalizing, and  unfortunately too many of our once fine nation's citizens don't even  have a clue that this is what is really happening.  But, they sure  can tell you the stats on their favorite sports teams.  Yeah -  THAT'S really important, isn't it.


Does it ever occur to ANYONE that the  "competition" has been producing vehicles, EXTREMELY PROFITABLY, for  decades in this country?  How can that be???  Let's see..   Fuel efficient.  Listening to customers.  Investing in the  proper tooling and automation for the long haul.


Not being too complacent or arrogant to listen  to Dr. W. Edwards Deming four decades ago when he taught that by  adopting appropriate principles of management, organizations could  increase quality and simultaneously reduce costs.  Ever increased  productivity through quality and intelligent planning.  Treating  vendors like strategic partners, rather than like "the enemy".   Efficient front and back offices. Non union environment.  


Again, I could go on and on, but I really  wouldn't be telling anyone anything they really don't already know down  deep in their hearts.  


I have six children, so I am not unfamiliar  with the concept of wanting someone to bail you out of a mess that you  have gotten yourself into - my children do this on a weekly, if not  daily basis, as I did when I was their age.  I do for them what my  parents did for me (one of their greatest gifts, by the way) - I make  them stand on their own two feet and accept the consequences of their  actions and work through it.  Radical concept,  huh?


Am I there for them in the wings?  Of  course - but only until such time as they need to be fully on their own  as adults.


I don't want to oversimplify a complex  situation, but there certainly are unmistakable parallels here between  the proper role of parenting and government.    Detroit and  the   United States need to pay for their sins.  Bad news,  people - it's coming whether we like it or not. The newly elected  Messiah really doesn't have a magic wand big enough to "make it all go  away."


I laughed as I heard Obama "reeling it back in"  almost immediately after the final vote count was tallied.  "we  really might not do it in a year or in four."  Where the Hell was  that kind of talk when he was RUNNING for office?


Stop trying to put off the inevitable folks .  That house in   Florida really isn't worth $750,000. People who jump  across a border really don't deserve free health care benefits.   That job driving that forklift for the Big 3 really isn't worth $85,000  a year.  We really shouldn't allow Wal-Mart to stock their shelves  with products acquired from a country that unfairly manipulates their  currency and has the most atrocious human rights infractions on the face  of the globe.


That couple whose combined income is less than  $50,000 really shouldn't be living in that $485,000 home. Let the market  correct itself folks - it will.

Yes it will be painful, but it's gonna' be painful  either way, and the bright side of my proposal is that on the other side  of it all, is a nation that appreciates what it has, doesn't live beyond  its means, gets back to basics and redevelops the patriotic work ethic  that made it the greatest nation in the history of the world. A return  to Christian principles, common sense and decency would also be  beneficial!


Sorry - don't cut my head off, I'm just the  messenger sharing with you the "bad news". I hope you take it to  heart.


Gregory J. Knox, President

Knox Machinery, Inc..   Franklin  ,   Ohio    45005