RE: Hydraulic Brakes

[EdSwank]

 
DW and I are real close to a purchase. A Jayco dealer we visited said they get the hydraulic surge brakes on the popups. Says the electric one have a tendency to lock the wheels and drag. This applies to the popups only, electric is on everything else they sell.
 I wanted some opinions and experiences with the hydraulic setup.
 This dealer is one of the top ten Jayco dealers in the US. It s a family run business we have been to many times in the past. They have never mislead us, pressured, or otherwise shown anything but true professionalism and honesty. So, when they say something like that, I really tend to believe them. They also didn t think sway was gooing to be an issue and thought a standard class III receiver and ball should be enough. UVW of PU is 2550lbs w/o air. Vehicle has 126"  WB and V6 rated for 5300lbs tow. The PU has an 18  10"  travel length.
 Also, do I really need some othe type of mirrors on the TV? You can see over the top of these for the most part, wasn t sure about the sides. Anyone tow with the stock mirrors?
 
 Thanks! Hope to be a " real"  member soon.
 
 Ed

[mike4947]

 EdSwank
Well Like the old saying goes you can tell when a dealer s lying by seeing if his lips are moving.
 While there is nothing wrong with surge brakes (3 out of 5 of my PU s have had them), most boat traliers depend on them (electrics don t take kindly to backing in the water) and contruction equipment used with a pintle hook usually has them if they have brakes there s nothing wrong with electric brakes either.
 The old " dragging the tires and locking the brakes"  goes back to older style brake controllers where it was all or nothing and you had to keep reseting the controller for the road speed.
 With new inertial controlers like the prodigy the controller brakes proportionally to the TV s braking.
 
 As for mirrors, hook up the PU and see if you can see the traffic in the mirrors on the sides. Having the mirrors sure beats trying to explain to the officer that that car was in " your blind spot"  while he is writing you a ticket for unsafe lane change and you re looking at the damage to the side of the PU.

[Gamecock Camper]

 EdSwank
I can tell you this about brakes.  My first camper was a Jayco Quest 10v (1999 model year).  I know it did not have electric brakes, and because of it s light weight, I don t think it had surge brakes either.    I never had any problems or issues with braking (even emergency braking on one or two occasions) or with sway.  I will tell you that I was always careful when loading the camper so that the weight was distributed fairly evenly within the camper.  I think this will have a bigger impact on sway and towablity (is that a word?)....
 
 The question about the mirrors will have to do more with the combination of tow vehicle and camper.  Mike is right.  Hook up the camper and see what your field of vision is and where your blind spots are.  With my Suburban, I don t need anything other than my stock mirrors, but if I were towing with a car instead of a truck I might need extended mirrors.  You ll just have to make that call after you decide what you are towing and towing with.  I hope this helps.

[Turn Key]

 EdSwank
Have towed with surge brakes (explosive handling trailers while in the USAF) and though I think they are a good, I feel electrics are a bit better.  If all else concerning the sale is as you like it, don t let the question of surge vs. electric brakes stop you.
 
 As far as sway control goes, I,ve been towing our Sea Pine for three years with out it and have not felt any need to add it.  Tow your PU for a while and see how you like it.
 
 As far as mirrors go, unless your pulling with a full-size truck and your PU has no AC, I m betting your going to find you need extentions.  I would suggest a set of CIPA Custom Towing Mirrors.  Have a site:
 
 http://www.cipamirrors.com/
 
 They don t give these away but they are way better then the strap-on types that you buy at Wal-Mart or RV shops.
 
 Hope this helps.  If you need more info, just post.  Happy Camping!

[mike4947]

 EdSwank
I ve got a set of their 11750 fender mount mirrors I ve had since 1977. They ve been on every vehicle I ve owned since then. Two minutes to put on and 2 minutes to take off and rock steady with absolutely no vibration.

[AustinBoston]

 EdSwank

ORIGINAL:  EdSwank
 DW and I are real close to a purchase. A Jayco dealer we visited said they get the hydraulic surge brakes on the popups. Says the electric one have a tendency to lock the wheels and drag. This applies to the popups only, electric is on everything else they sell.
 I wanted some opinions and experiences with the hydraulic setup.
 This dealer is one of the top ten Jayco dealers in the US. It s a family run business we have been to many times in the past. They have never mislead us, pressured, or otherwise shown anything but true professionalism and honesty. So, when they say something like that, I really tend to believe them. They also didn t think sway was gooing to be an issue and thought a standard class III receiver and ball should be enough. UVW of PU is 2550lbs w/o air. Vehicle has 126"  WB and V6 rated for 5300lbs tow. The PU has an 18  10"  travel length.
 

 I have never heard anyone say electric brakes were not adequate.  I have heard people say surge brakes were not adequate (in certain circumstances).  For a (uh, slightly heated) discussion about surge brakes & going down hills, you might want to read this from the Mr. Fixit form: [link=http://www.popuptimes.com/members/tm.asp?m=2176&p=3&tmode=1]Major DESCHNITZIFYING[/link]
 
 Jayco used to use surge brakes standard.  They then started offering electric as an option.  Now, they have switched to electric as standard, with surge brakes as an option.  For some reason, dealers still order them with the surge brakes.  It could be familiarity, it could be what people have come to expect, or it could be that they have the chance to try to save someone from going to another brand by saying " You know they have electric brakes? I wouldn t trust those..."
 
 I prefer electrics intellectually (I have never used surge brakes), but I would not let the type of brakes be a make or break issue on a deal.  (pun only partly intended)
 
 On the sway issue, Jayco trailers have a reputation for being very stable, but read what your tow vehicle owner s manual says.  You may be required to have sway control for that weight trailer.  If that s true, you really want the electric brakes so you can add a sway bar.
 
 Austin

[EdSwank]

 EdSwank
Well, I didn t want to pass on the deal because of brakes. Everything else seems " normal"  except the brakes. Heck, like Austin alluded to, the surge brakes are a $221 option. I thought that somehow, since you have to pay extra for them, there would be some advantage over electric.
 
 The bright side is DW and I are East Coast travellers (can t save enough vacation time to go too far!). So, the largest grades we will deal with are minor compared to the grades I drove in the Rockies. Some hills in Maine, some mountains in NC. The rest is mild hill terrain. So, nothing that I would think required heavy braking from the PU itself.
 
 Do all of you (or some of you, or none), use a breakaway switch?? Was curious about that also.
 
 Thanks again.

[mike4947]

 EdSwank
Actually this would have been a good subject for a new thread.
 As for myself YES I use one ALL the time. and between it and having proper length and crossed safety chains saved me major damage to either/or the PU and my TV. The hitch didn t lock and popped off the ball at highway speed.
 Say that you ll be able to react and pull the manual lever and activate the trailer brakes in an emergency like that and you re self delusional. The chains stopped the PU tongue from digging into the road the the breakaway applied the trailer brakes so the chains stayed tight and the PU stayed straight behind the TV and allowed me to slowly break the whole rig to a stop. All that happened was one little scratch on the bumper and we we able to hook up the PU  and drive away. IMHO anyone what doesn t use a breakaway switch is either ignorant (lacking knowledge) of it s use or the dangers involved in not using one.
 
 A breakaway needs to be set so it activates it the hitch comes off the ball and before the safety chains stop the trailer movement rearward.

[EdSwank]

 EdSwank
Mike, after reading your post. I got to thinking, can a breakaway be used with hydraulic brakes? Seems it wouldn t since the braking system is activated via a plunger somewhere, not electrical current. hmmmm...

[oldmoose]

 EdSwank
We have surge brakes on our trailer. We ve never had any problems and when having a hard stop the trailer stayed true. We ve never had a sway problem either even with high winds in the Calif. desserts. The only problem is backing the trailer up a grade. There is a lever that needs to be moved before backing. Otherwise the brakes could lock up. We love our Jayco.

[EdSwank]

 EdSwank
Thanks for the input Bill. That s exactly the unit we re looking at. We may lay some cash down on one tomorrow. DW needs to approve first. I m happy to hear you like your 12FSO.

[Dust64]

 EdSwank
Ed: I m not familiar with the surge brake units on Jayco trailers, but the surge brake units on U-Haul trailers do have provisions for emergency break away protection. The top plate on the surge unit has a seperate chain that attaches to the tow vehicle. Should the trailer become disconnected this chain " pops"  up the plate causing the actuating cylinder to release applying full braking to the trailer.
 
 One advantage of the surge brake unit I haven t seen mentioned is that it eliminates the need for brake controls in the towing vehicle. This allows the owner to tow the trailer and still have brakes with any vehicle. The cost you mentioned for the surge brake option on your camper represents the cost of an electric brake control and installation labor...earl

[mike4947]

 EdSwank

Mike, after reading your post. I got to thinking, can a breakaway be used with hydraulic brakes? Seems it wouldn t since the braking system is activated via a plunger somewhere, not electrical current. hmmmm...
   

 Well the breakaway I had Ed, was with surge brakes on a old Rockwood 1206 PU. The breakaway wire is connected to the TV and the brake actuating lever under that cover on the tongue where the cyclinder is. The trailer comes loose the wire gets pulled and the cyclinder gets activated by the wire. Needless to say it not a thin wire as it has to be strong enough to actually activate the brakes, unlike electric breakaways that actually have to seperate to energize the brakes.
 
 PS that was back in the olden days when I was really ignorant about trailers. The first time I tried to back up the PU onto a raised site I spent an hour till we finally just pushed it on to the site. Needless to say I hadn t listened to the dealer explain or read the manual on the brakes. In those days you had to have a 1 x 1 steel block to put into the brake next to the cylinder to keep the brake from actuatting. Now they have a little lever on the housing you flip to lock out the brake when backing up.

[Gone-Camping]

 EdSwank
I have owned both (actually, still own both) and there is not that much difference between them. They both work well in helping to stop the traiiler. The electric brakes are preferred by most, but have a little more going for them, as they are fully adjustable from the drivers seat by changing the control settings as needed. They also can be applied manually by depressing the manual activator. You can t do either of that with Surge brakes. The down side is, you have to buy an electric brake controller, good ones get up around $100, and if you buy anything other than a Tekonsha Prodigy, then many members on this board will never let you live that down. Perhaps for good reasons, as the Prodigy is the best. I myself use the Tekonsha Voyager, works well enough for me (cost me $0 so I d say I m getting my monies worth out of it). Both a porportional, but the Prodigy is plug and play, the Voyager does require a little finesse. Stay away from time delay controllers (most of them are just that too).
 
 As for Surge brakes, they are truely portportional braking system, so the harder you brake, the harder they work. You don t need to buy a controller, or anything else to make them work, and can use any tow capable vehicle to haul it and they ll still work. However, the down fall with them are a little more numerous. For starters, when going down a hill, the trailer pushing against the hitch ball will activate the brakes, and as that happens the trailer starts to slow and then pulls back on the hitchball, this action just keeps on repeating itself, pushing and pulling all the way down the hill. It would have to be a pretty good hill or mountain to really become noticed, and on some occassions, I found the self braking while going down steep mountain slopes to actually be of benefit. Some people have reported problems while backing up because that too pushes against the ball and activates the brake, but I ve never experience that problem with 2 trailers equipped with them.
 
 The other major drawback, is that sway control is pretty much a moot point. I do understand that someone makes a sway control unit that will work with surge brakes, but know little about it or how much it cost. You ll have a hard enough time just finding one!
 
 Oh, and surge brakes do indeed have emergency break-a-way too, it attaches with a cable just like the electric ones do, but instead of pulling a mechanical lever that activates an electric switch, this just pulls a mechanical lever that pushes the cylinder in and activates the brake. Break-a-way switch is mandatory on trailers equipped with braking systems.