RE: Turkish Troops on high alert on Northern Iraq Border

[birol]

 As the Kurds have invaded the oil rich towns of Mosoul, and Kirkuk, 40,000+ Turkish troops are on high alert as of today at the border. They are at a readiness level which enables them them to deploy immediately. Despites USA s reassurances that Kurds were made to leave Kirkuk, and will leave Mousoul as well, looks like things might change quickly.
 
 USA had promised to Turkey that Kurds would not be in any towns, especially near the oil fields. I guess now that they are in those towns, the already strained relationship between the two countries is being tested once again.
 
 Turkey is sending military observers to northern Iraq in coordination with USA. They will visit various cities in north Iraq and report back to Turkish authorities.
 
 Ministry of foreigh affairs (of Turkey) stated that hopefully US will keep its promise and take control of those two cities by it own troops.
 
 I have a nasty feeling about all this, the war might just be starting, it won t take much to get Iran, Syria, Turkey & Israel get involved in this.
 
 
 [&:][&:][&:]

[Danusmom]

 birol
Birol, can you help me understand the animosity between the Kurds & Turkey?  If the Kurds remain in Iraq, I don t understand why Turkey would be upset.  Obviously, I am ignorant of the history between these 2 groups.  I believe you stated some time ago that you are originally from Turkey.  Your prospect would certainly help shed the cloud of ignorance I have.
 
 Peace be with you all.

[gr8grandpa]

 birol
I sure hope that the war does not spread to other countries. Is Turkey afraid that they will have trouble with the kurds in their own country?

[AustinBoston]

 Danusmom

ORIGINAL:  Danusmom
 
 Birol, can you help me understand the animosity between the Kurds & Turkey?  If the Kurds remain in Iraq, I don t understand why Turkey would be upset.

 I m not Birol, nor am I from Turkey, but...
 
 I believe the greatest fear is that the Kurds would try to set up their own state.  Since there are many Kurds in Turkey, they would almost certanly want Turkish territory that is currently populated with Kurds included as part of their new state.  Turkey certainly doesn t want to give up land, even to friends (which the Kurds are not).
 
 Kurds seizing strategic points in Iraq indicates that they may indeed intend to set up their own state.  This is where things could get very tricky (i.e. dangerous) for the US.  It is imperative that we not allow them to set up a Kurdish state, but doing so would probably pit us against the population in Kurdish parts of Iraq.  A conflict with the population would be bloody for both sides.
 
 Austin

[birol]

 birol
AB stated it more or less completely.
 
 Kurds were part of the Ottoman Empire, as Ottoman Empire was all (well almost) al Middle east, Eastern Europe, some parts of Africa and so on. So most of the population of these countries were melted in a pot, relocated to other parts of the country and etc, Kurds included.
 
 Now my father was an officer in the Turkish Army for ~ 27 years, so I lived in eastern Turkey a lot, which is really an undeveloped part of Turkey. I remember some kids being called Kurds, and we were told that they were not really friendly to us, I always wondered why, as I was around 6 or so, I never understood the reason behind it. I mean, we played together, had fun together, they spoke Turkish, and was Turkish as far as I knew then.
 
 In my humble opinion, they Kurds started to react/act really loudly when the economical engine of Turkey failed especially in the eastern part of the country. Everyone on the eastern part was suffering, really bad living conditions where the west was flourishing. Nice government policies!!!!!!
 
 Turks are strong enduring people, almost every Turk has a grand father or great grand father who died (or veteran) during the war of independence. So, being Turks, the ones living in east Turkey they did not  mind anything much and suffered, after all we had just come out from being an empire which is not exactly a very democratic environment, 600 years of being made to listen to the rulers takes its toll on peoples mind set.
 
 Kurds on the other hand, did not like the situation, and  of course being a separate nationality (according to them), wanted independence, thanks to the aid and help of foreign fingers of our neighbours.
 
 So a bloody battle started (I think 20 years it took), to keep Turkey as it is now.  Only the capture of their blood thirsty leader put a stop the their rebellion (It is said that USA played a major role in his capture).
 
 The issue for Turks is, our Grandfathers, or their fathers fought for what is Turkey now against, France, Italy, UK, Greece, the current Arab nations, and probably a few I forgot. So having fought really hard for the land we have, the stance is, if you want a part of it, please do not expect us to give it to you that is not going to happen, you will have to come and fight for it.  When the Republic of Turkey was founded, Kurds were treated as Turks and were happy to live in the land they were already living. All that land had to be fought for. Just asking for it now is just not cutting it for Turkish people.
 
 I believe the combined loss of life was millions (can t recall right now exactly but not one or two millions, closer to 5 or higher, don t want to lie).
 
 I hope this sort of explains the situation Turkish people has taken against Kurds. Like everything else, it takes two to tango, and I am sure there were mistakes our governments made for quite a few years as well. But nothing justifies 40,000 civilians being killed in 20 years. During the peak of the conflict, Turkish villages were raided, children and woman and man shot, whole villages wiped out. It is sad.....
 
 
 I hope there will be peaceful situation to all this, as Turkish newspapers almost see it as a done deal that Turkish army will march southward any moment.  If I did not pass the cut off age, I could be drafted back in as an artillery guy back into the army. But, I think after 40 they don t bother unless they really want a lot of soldiers. Every male is drafted in Turkey for military service at the age of 18 (or later if studying) and serve anywhere from 6 months to 24 months. Army is around 750,000 strong right now I believe.
 
 They made a big mistake by not joining the coalition, getting in after the coalition forces and keeping the area safe. I hope the region do not pay for this ... And almost none of the population in Turkey shares this view.
 
 Woow, this must be the longest posting I ever wrote.
 

[Danusmom]

 birol
Thanks for helping me understand, Birol (& AB).  I was still wondering why the point of contention still existed if the Kurds remained in Iraq.  If the Kurds governed control over those 2 northern Iraq cities, would that equate to some sort of economic imposition on the Turks ?according to the Turkish point of view?
 
 If I understand your explanation correctly, the Turks are afraid the Kurds are going to want (possibly) the territory of Turkey bordering Iraq as well as areas of northern Iraq for their own Kurd-controlled state (within Iraq?).  In my Western mind-set, it doesn?t necessarily seem like a ?bad thing? for them to have their own Kurd governed state within Iraq ?excluding Turkish territory?so long as they go about it through diplomatic channels.  Is the concern lying within the method the Kurds create their own state (i.e. bloody war)?  Or, do the Turks just not want a ?new? bordering neighbor with which they need to deal with developing ?new? border controls & economic commerce with?  Also, I guess I still don t understand how --if using diplomatic methods-- the Kurds setting up their own state to govern would harm the US s image in the Middle East.
 
 I really appreciate your patience in explaining this situation, Birol.  Having lived in the U.S. all my life & only traveling to ?foreign? countries as Canada?s Ontario (Toronto, Windsor, etc.), British Columbia, & the Yukon Territory, I haven?t been exposed to much in the way of other countries? history.  Hence, I m a bit sheltered in this isolation from history/politics in other regions of the world.  You certainly sound like you have a wonderful temperament for understanding other cultures.
 
 Peace be with you all.

[birol]

 birol
Kurds having a state in Northern Iraq would change the balance in Middle east. They would get the oil fields(which Turkey thinks it was theirs and belongs to them if there is re-partitioning, as they lost it thru war) and that would make them rich and powerfull. That is a lot of oil there. And which country would want another country to florish next to it when they know those people are upto no good ?
 
 Once Kurds establish a state,
 
 a ) Kurds in Turkey would move out (more powerful Kurd state, with all that oil, inevitable clashes pretty soon)
 
 b ) Kurds in Turkey would want to seperate (war).
 
 As you can see, both options are not good, that s why Turkey and USA are trying to find a compromise.
 
 Let me see, how would you like say N. Koreans  purchasing/freeing/invading  Alaska with all its oil reserves ?  Or, Canadians doing it ? (Not a good example as we are good neighbours, what if we did not like each other as nations though ?).
 
 I think ti comes to Turkey not wanting a powerful Kurd state at its borders, one more issue to deal with and might be impossible to handle with all that oil money .
 
 Peace in the Country, Peace in the World  (Very rough translation of a Turkish saying) as Turks say.

[mike4947]

 birol
Birol, since the eastern/southern part of Turkey has a very high Kurdish population. A Kurdish state bordering on this area would have a very high probability of causing all kinds of seperatist activity in that region of Turkey. They have problems with it now. Imagine what would happen with an independent Kurdish state right there.

[birol]

 mike4947

 

ORIGINAL:  mike4947
 
 Birol, since the eastern/southern part of Turkey has a very high Kurdish population. A Kurdish state bordering on this area would have a very high probability of causing all kinds of seperatist activity in that region of Turkey. They have problems with it now. Imagine what would happen with an independent Kurdish state right there.
 

 
 Mike, bulls eye , both the options A or B will lead to that !

[Danusmom]

 birol
Ah, now I understand.  It seems like the mentalities/mind-sets are deeply rooted in a very long & vicious history which greatly influences predictions/forecasts of future scenarios.  Seems insurmountable for them to stray from past behaviors.  I pray the new government of Iraq will help form a more civilized approach to resovles in the future which would lay a greater foundation to peace.  
 
 Thank you, again, for having the patience to explain this delicate balance --at least the attempt of balance-- in that region.
 
 Peace be with you all.

[Gatsmommy]

 birol
Just to throw my 2 cents in, What I have heard of the Turkish/Kurd conflict is mostly from the Kurd side. That in recent history the Turkish army has attacked, burned, and relocated numerous Kurdish villges for very little, or no reason. Also the sorce I heard from is that most Kurds would very willingly accept being part of Turkey if givin a voice in government, and recognized as it s own ethnic group.
 
 I do remember hearing that Turkey was kept out of the European coallition (not sure what the official name is) for human rights violations against the Kurds.
 
 What I haven t understood is why Turkey would be our ally when they are fighting with the Kurds and yet we are supporting the Kurds in Iraq. The Iraq government felt the same way about the Kurds as the Turkish government did. When you hear reference to Saddam killing  his own people he was infact killing Kurds, and did not consider them as being his own people.
 
 As with most of the realtions in this part of the world it s all based on what happend hundreds and thousands of years ago, and who wants reveng on who (Turkey, Greece, Albaina, etc.). So I m going back into my little corner and not trying to understand this stuff anymore since I really don t think most of it is understandable.
 
 

[birol]

 Gatsmommy
Gatsmommy,
 
 Please be assured that Kurds have every right to be represented in the government as much as I have a right to be represented. How would you like it if Texas wants to be represented in the senate ? well, they are, aren t they ?
 
 Turkish people are amongst  the most patient ones I would dare to say, It took a lot of Turkish children/woman/man being killed to get us to act as we did in the past.  I do not like a lot of things in Canada, but I do not go on a killin rampage, guess what, Canadian government does not care that I exist, they are not after me, am I able to convey a message ? Now if I started doing things, it would take no time for authorities to come after me.
 
 How about you guys recognize (I am making this up) rednecks as an ethnic group and watch them declare independence in no time ? How about Ohio merging with Ontario after being recognized as an ethnic group ?
 
 It IS complicated, it is difficult to understand or explain. As for USA supporting Kurds in Iraq, I don t think I would call it supporting them , I think it is a mutual understanding of being friendly for a while. USA needs Kurds right now, they don t want to fight them, USA also does not want to upset Turkey too much, that s why Kurds were told to move out of Kirkuk and Mosul, and they did. It is politics at its best I guess. Does "  You scratch my back, I scratch yours"  make sense ?
 
 As for the EU, In my opinion, Turkey is kept out because not all of the population is at the same level of civilization/mentality/modernazation(sp) required to embrace EU yet, it will also be the only non-christian country. And, Europe has this fear of Turkey barging down their borders (well there are millions of Turks living in Europe already). I guess when the time is right, Turkey migth join EU, or maybe not. The mentality is so different between the EU and Turkey, I don t think it would be very beneficial yet, maybe I am wrong.
 
 Final thoughts : Turkey should have helped USA in the war, it would have lastes a lot shorter, outcome would be better for Turkey and Kurds, and both countries would end up being better allies. I see a lot of things happening in Turkey which I don t understand anymore. I am subscribed to a lot of mailing  lists originating  in Turkey, and don t understand the blindness and the hatred messages all contain.
 
 I hope I did not burn any bridges and made enemies by writing down my thoughts ........ Just my opinions.
 
 

[Gatsmommy]

 birol

I hope I did not burn any bridges and made enemies by writing down my thoughts ........ Just my opinions

 Not at all, and like I said my source was mainly a documentry that was filmed from the Kurdish perspective. And I take that into account as well. I was just throwing the " other side"  into the ring so to speak.
 
 I do also get fustrated when I try to understand the biases, and hatreds that exist in Eastern Europe, because so many of them are from incidents that happend so long ago. My BIL is from Greece and I asked him one time why " they"  (Greek politics, and many people) don t like Turks, and he referred back to something that had happend over 200 years ago. I also asked him about the Albanians, and it s becuase they are fighting over the name of a state that they both thought was theirs.
 
 I just have a problem understanding how an why a people in general can hold a grudge that long that will lead to violence, but I guess that s what most wars are about.
 
 
 

[ShirleyT]

 birol

 

ORIGINAL:  birol
 
 How about you guys recognize (I am making this up) rednecks as an ethnic group and watch them declare independence in no time ?
 

 Think we call it Oklahoma!! [8D][8D] (Joking of course!)
 
 

[birol]

 Gatsmommy

 

ORIGINAL:  Gatsmommy
 
 and he referred back to something that had happend over 200 years ago.
 

 Turks are known to have conquered quite a few small empires around 650 years ago or so, If those conquered people hadn t merged with the general population and weren t  happy with their situation (I am sure this took a long long time, and the Ottoman empire was a  very fair and advanced empire for its time), they would also hate Turks
 
 The truth is, almost every country goes thru ups and downs, and do some bad things and some good things.
 
 I wonder why French do not hate Germans ? Same with British and germans ?  (Not picking on germans here), Italians and USA ? No hatred ..... .
 
 I think the mentality of people where Turkey is located, Balkans, Middle east is different ....... Reminds me elephants [&:][&:][&:]