The Elephant In the Living Room

[NightOwl]

OKay--I am sick to death of all this hypocritical pussy-footing around and I am going to bring this out into the open and let the chips fall where they may.  There have  been a lot of negative comments by those of you who dislike or distrust Birol and of course, HE is the real topic (and intended victim of these  remarks by those of you too cowardly to name him.)

Clearly the Munchausen thread was aimed at him and we all know it.

SO, just how honest are you prepared to be?  Here's your opportunity to  support your hypothesis about him with REAL FACTS.

Of those who think he is a fake--how many of you have ACTUALLY met him?   And if you have met him, please outline EXACTLY what makes you think he is a liar and manipulator, trading on the gullibility of people here.

A number of people here and on the old board have met him and his children (remember the Rally?)  Remember the gift of MOAT and all the  guys who were involved in that project? Remember what they wrote after meeting him? Remember the days he spent with Lee and Andrea and family?  Are these people such morons they could not see through him when he is right in front of their eyes?  

Hershy Girl,  I respect your opinions and experience and yes, I too know someone in our own community here who suffers from Munchausen by Proxy and, I agree,  it is a hideous condition.  The young mother who does this has a near genius IQ and is an honor graduate of a very prestigeous university.  And with even half a brain  everyone knows  something is really wrong there!

Now let's just be totally open here --come out and say what is honestly bothering you about this whole Birol thing.

My take on Brol is this:  he was raised in a TOTALLY different society than he is now living in--making him "very different" to start with.  He didnt speak English fluently or at least with an accent that marked him as "foreign" --was an immigrant forced to flee his homeland.  

Those of you who are such instant  psychological experts--have you ever heard of "culture shock"?  I have lived abroad for awhile in Europe and I know from even that brief experience  it is not easy to adjust to another world totally different from your own.  So everything is a strain to start with.  And you never quite feel like you fit in.  Then you add in job complications and  great loss of income and "position" as well as horrendous domestic problems coming when you have young teen-agers to finish raising and it is a total  disaster to try to live through it.   So you turn to people you thought were your friends.


Unlike the man in one of the "interseting website articles" bearbait provided  (hmmm, is he really the source of that?) the actual person in question here (Birol)  HAS BEEN MET by plenty of  board members  and  they know he is REAL--not someone who invented themselves and does not actually exist like the person above .

Birol has been around this board for a long time and has gradually opened up and poured out all kinds of personal things ON THE CAMPFIRE FORUM ONLY!!  Remember way back when the CampFire forum was introduced?  It was for ANYTHING we wanted to write about  that wasnt about camping and popups just as long as it wasnt dirty or  unkind.  REMEMBER?

So Birol took that at face value and confided in us.  and some of us responded in support and some of us decided he was a total  fake and a liar and a crazy person and a jerk and not fit to be here with all of us nice, kind wonderful   SANE Christian people.  And those who feel that way are determined to break him down and force him to leave.  This is just what every troubled person needs, isnt it?   After all, that IS clearly your intention.  Make him miserable enough and he will go and you can have things exactly as you want them.


And you think you wont have to put up with  bleeding heart half-wits like Cindy and Toni and Teri and  Cliff and Lee and Andrea and me offering him support or friendship. (But, ha, ha--we'll find someone else to support :#)

What ever happened to the idea that God put us on earth to lift people up, not crush them with unkindness and  vicious innuendo?  Why go to so much trouble to make life miserable for someone who has never said or done an unkind thing here and is a threat to no one?  THIS IS SO TOTALLY UNNECESSARY!  


Some of us have really awful personal problems...  Bearbait is one of them and he has chosen to remain silent here about them.  It is his way of dealing with his  life the best way he can. So his friends respect him for that. Others ask for prayer.  Birol has gone the route of seeking help here publicly.  (Sometimes there is a real advantage in opening up to people you are not directly involved with face to face on a daily basis)  . So why is he not equally entitled to the respect and kindness other people here receive?

If you dont like him and dont believe anything he says, why do you read his threads?  (Is it because without reading those remarks of his about his problems you would be deprived  of someone to pick on?)

I reject the diagnosis of all of you self-appointed medical experts until you have personally examined Birol and found him unfit for  membership here.

And please do not insult my intelligence by denying  what is in the backs of your minds--and what your real intentions are--it is perfecly clear, when you make the kind of remarks you have aimed at him even when you havent been honest enough to admit what you are doing.

You who  were so loudly full of complaints and  criticism of one pitiful member--now you have a chance to make the rest of us understand your behaviour.  This is your chance to  stand up and defend your  low opinions of Birol.  Or will your silence indicate that we are right to  conclude that  your personal animosity is just that and has no basis in fact and that perhaps your real motive is to destroy, not just Birol, but this board as well, by causing constant  trouble and unrest.

[MommaMia]

My opinions on this matter are my own and that's where they stay.... with me

[birol]

Fake .... Yup, I am imagining that my a.. was hauled to the jail ...and I have to pay three lawyers to defend myself and that actually the children are here but again my imagination is making me not see them. And all the money disappearing from my bank accounts are also not real.

Yup, I am fake, and all you people who can not deal with reality and turn on a (virtual) friend are real.

If some of you are samples of civilized western world, I don't want to have anything to do with the "so called civilized western world". You all have to learn a lot about being a good human being. I am sure Jesus is very proud of you !!!

No this is not good bye. I am here to watch how pathetic some of you can get.

Elisa : Sorry to hijack your thread a little bit but I am sick and tired of the way I was treated by some people and the moderators allowing and joining it.

[Jim in Michigan]

Wow!  I opened this thread up thinking there was some kind of a joke inside.

Honestly, I don't post much as you can see from my post count. I try to log in every day or two but just mainly browse around so I haven't been keeping up closely with Birol's personal life other than knowing he is going through some really, really tough times.  I haven't been in his situation so there is little I can offer in word or deed but I provide encouragement in my own quiet way.

I guess I haven't been reading all the posts because I didn't see any attacks or harrassment by the board members or moderators but if it is true than that is pretty sad.  If I didn't want to get into personal or non camping issues than I would just stay out of the campfire forum such as people like Tim do (who is the reason I decided to subscribe to this pay forum because of his extremely helpful posts).

Having said all that, I believe Birol is who he comes across as, and I am sure people that have personally met him will state the same.  I also believe that there are not any frauds on this site at all considering you have to pay money to be here and this is such a narrow, topic driven forum for people who share a common interest - pop-up camping.  You find plenty of frauds in the large list forums which is where the frauds were found in the links in the other posts.

Has our society become so cynical that when someone who has posted here for years suddenly falls on some hard times we think he is making all this up?  I certainly hope not!

Don't worry Birol, there are lots of people here who "have your back" even if we spend far too long in lurk mode.  We are silently praying for you, away from the keyboard, hoping your nightmare will soon end.  Take care.

[jpreiser]

Wow... WEll I have never met Birol face to face, I have talked to him on here, seen pictures on here, etc. Seems like a very nice man who just happens to be going thru a crappy time right now.He turns here for support, not to be put down.

I can see why most foreign people think Americans are rude. Heck I was born here and think it.I see,hear,rude people every day. At work, school, etc

.Just remember....
What goes around comes around.
 If ya treat pople like crap you may be on the receiving end of it one day.
 

As my mom always said treat people how you would like to be treated!!

[campingboaters]

Amen NightOwl and jpresier!
 
 I've never met Birol in person, but being a child of immigrants makes me completely understand the struggles he faces everyday -- especially people thinking he's not smart because he doesn't perfectly speak English.  I know WAY more "Americans" that butcher the English language.  I also have a friend going through a nasty divorce VERY similar to Birol's situation so I completely understand the stress this is causing him physically and emotionally.  I wish there was more I could do for him other than offer words of encouragement here on this board!
 
 To those here that feel the need to shut him down, I ask... Must you like and agree with EVERYONE on a message board?  Ignore the posts that you have no interest in.  The campfire is an off-topic forum.  If you don't want to deal with anything here not about camping, don't bother reading anything in the campfire.  It's YOUR choice...
 

 
 Hang in there Birol!

[SkipP]

OKay--I am sick to death of all this hypocritical pussy-footing around and I am going to bring this out into the open and let the chips fall where they may. There has been a lot of character asassination going on by those of you who dislike or distrust Birol and of course, HE is the real topic (and intended victim of these remarks by those of you too cowardly to name him.)
 

(snipped)

 
Now let's just be honest for a change here and see what happens instead of certain people sneaking around and making vague comments intended to make someone else leave the board. Come out and say what is honestly bothering you about this whole Birol thing.
 

(more snipping)

I reject the diagnosis of all of you medical experts until you have personally examined Birol and found him unfit for membership here.
 
And please do not insult my intelligence by denying what is in the backs of your minds--and what your real intentions are--it is perfecly clear, when you make the kind of remarks you have aimed at him even when you havent been honest enough to admit what you are doing.

Who are these "certain" people?
 
Thanks Elisa for bringing this out...... it's needed.
 
I don't know Birol..... have no clue as to his motivations, character or if he is who he say's he is. I assume, as far as his personal problems, there is another side to his story though.
 
What bothers me, even on the Campfire, is that someone will start a thread, Birol will post to it and then, oftentimes (not always) the thread will lose it's direction and become yet another one of many dealing with his problems and travails.
 
Perhaps a way to avoid this obviously divisive subject would be to start yet another Forum. Dealing strictly with issues of a personal nature? Announcements such as weddings, funerals (suit wearing stuff:) ), yes maratial discord, births..... things like this could be posted there by those that feel comfortable doing so. Those that don't want to be subjected to these personal issues could then do so as well. The Campfire could then be used for non-camping related, non-personal issues. It's a thought anyway.
 
I will admit, Elisa this last part of your quote bothers me. Please don't insult other peoples intelligence by claiming to know whats in the back of their minds or questioning their honesty.
 
Respectfully,

[debbiedee1957]

I will be honest- I for one wonder just "why" Birol was in jail.  People are not put & kept for quite afew days in jail for "nothing".  

I wouldn't even know, nor care about Birol being in jail had he not made it a public topic, now that he has, it has really caused a great deal of problems here on this board and I "honestly" feel that this NONSENSE must stop.  I have sent several "reports" to moderators of this board in hope of getting all of us "back on track" and off this garbage.

Keep "personal", "personal" and Private.  Don't go public and then cry discrimination & whatever else when people do not all receive you in a positive manner.

Fake .... Yup, I am imagining that my a.. was hauled to the jail ...and I have to pay three lawyers to defend myself and that actually the children are here but again my imagination is making me not see them. And all the money disappearing from my bank accounts are also not real.

Yup, I am fake, and all you people who can not deal with reality and turn on a (virtual) friend are real.

If some of you are samples of civilized western world, I don't want to have anything to do with the "so called civilized western world". You all have to learn a lot about being a good human being. I am sure Jesus is very proud of you !!!

No this is not good bye. I am here to watch how pathetic some of you can get.

Elisa : Sorry to hijack your thread a little bit but I am sick and tired of the way I was treated by some people and the moderators allowing and joining it.

[OC Campers]

I have never responded to a controversial thread in the 4 years I have been a member of PUT.  I usually mind my own business and just let time heal the wounds created.

I don't know Birol but I feel that he has not been treated fairly.  He made the choice to write about what is going on in his life on the board and certain folks have decided to call him a liar and tell him he is sick.  I think that is very wrong.   Nobody but Birol knows what is going on in his life.  Nobody has the right to make accusations if you don't have cold hard facts.  Birol, I just wanted to let you know that people do care (even if we don't know you)  I wish you the best in everything you are going through.
 
Jacqui

[NightOwl]

Quote:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally Posted by NightOwl
OKay--I am sick to death of all this hypocritical pussy-footing around and I am going to bring this out into the open and let the chips fall where they may. There has been a lot of character asassination going on by those of you who dislike or distrust Birol and of course, HE is the real topic (and intended victim of these remarks by those of you too cowardly to name him.)

(snipped)


Now let's just be honest for a change here and see what happens instead of certain people sneaking around and making vague comments intended to make someone else leave the board. Come out and say what is honestly bothering you about this whole Birol thing.

(more snipping)

I reject the diagnosis of all of you medical experts until you have personally examined Birol and found him unfit for membership here.

And please do not insult my intelligence by denying what is in the backs of your minds--and what your real intentions are--it is perfecly clear, when you make the kind of remarks you have aimed at him even when you havent been honest enough to admit what you are doing.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Who are these "certain" people?

Thanks Elisa for bringing this out...... it's needed.

I don't know Birol..... have no clue as to his motivations, character or if he is who he say's he is. I assume, as far as his personal problems, there is another side to his story though.

What bothers me, even on the Campfire, is that someone will start a thread, Birol will post to it and then, oftentimes (not always) the thread will lose it's direction and become yet another one of many dealing with his problems and travails.

Perhaps a way to avoid this obviously divisive subject would be to start yet another Forum. Dealing strictly with issues of a personal nature? Announcements such as weddings, funerals (suit wearing stuff ), yes maratial discord, births..... things like this could be posted there by those that feel comfortable doing so. Those that don't want to be subjected to these personal issues could then do so as well. The Campfire could then be used for non-camping related, non-personal issues. It's a thought anyway.

I will admit, Elisa this last part of your quote bothers me. Please don't insult other peoples intelligence by claiming to know whats in the back of their minds or questioning their honesty.

Respectfully,


 
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Posts: 220    

Skip, this is a very fair and  thoughtful post, or at least I find it so.  My claim in my last sentences  that people have a hidden  agenda is based on the many derogatory statements made about Birol both openly and in veiled ways (see the thread on Munchausen which was clearly aimed at him given the history of the thread's initiator)   I dont think it is very honest to do this kind of thing and I dont think it fair to try to stick pins in someone who has come here for support

Your idea to add a forum dedicated ONLY to personal things like babies and marriages and divorces and prayers needed is  A FANTASTIC ONE and one which could well solve all the problems we have been facing here lately.  I THINK IT IS NOTHING LESS THAN A STROKE OF GENIUS!!

Why dont you start a poll  as well as a thread about it here and see what response you get.  I actually think it is the best idea I have ever seen here.  Creative and simple and VERY EFFECTIVE!!

I also think you should send this to Dave ASAP as it could well save the board from  future  losses of angry, disappointed  members.

Offhand I dont recall the threads which have been hi-jacked by Birol but it has probably happened more than once (ooops, something a lot of us are guilty of sometimes )   He can sometimes be almost scatterbrained  or sort of disjointed in what he says but then, I put that down to not being born in this part of the world and still trying to figure out what is going on.

At least I have not known him to be unkind or pick on people despite the fact he is often picked on and derided here.

[chasd60]

I stayed uninvolved in these posts until recently. When people started making accusations about attacks and attacking people themselves I decided to weigh the information and contribute.
 
 A man is arrested and spends a week in jail is not allowed to return to the residence or see the children, but he did nothing (suspicious)
  He returns to the board and shows great disappointment that there is no "Where's XXX?" thread.
  He shares the information about his arrest and detainment with a board that has a lot of members.
 He posts that he yet may have another job in the IT field which he was laid off from several years ago. (can only find a paper route in the interim)
 I guess the job either did not materialize or he chose not to share any more information about it. (Didn't get too much attention on the board)
  Got a job painting
  Lost the job "for not painting fast enough"
  Has a lot of emotional issues and shares that on the board
  The sympathies are expressed and everyone thinks he should see a doctor
  When he finally sees a doctor, there are no more issues and he magically feels great but the sympathy continues.
 He claims the spouse is threatening to "kill" the children all of the time and the police are there several times per week. But, somehow the children still want to live with her and the police do not arrest her nor even take the children from her (suspicious). He appears not to be too concerned about this.
  One might wonder if all of these things are actually happening, in reality that is.
 Some board members believe these stories are suspicious at the least and maybe the member is a little delusional. There appears to be an illness that follows this pattern of seeking sympathy and going from tragedy to tragedy. This information is shared on the board in an effort to get his "friends" to understand that he may not be well.
  This sharing of information is perceived as an attack by his "friends" and they in turn begin attacking.
 
  I now see that there is yet another Job in view, that should get some more attention and hope from a lot of his "friends".
  I should also let you know ...
 Did the response that Lee got on this subject show that it received a lot attention so it is now being used? Will this now become the latest heartache from which to get more sympathy when it doesn't work out?
 
 I am unsure what I believe. I know in my heart that I did not attack him and I believe he knows it. I questioned some things he said in an effort to get a better understanding. Even though I quoted him several times, he tried to twist my questions into an attack. I am a moderator on this board but I am also a member and entitled to contribute as such. I did not intervene into these things earlier unless I saw it as a violation of the rules. I have editted a couple of posts from BOTH sides of this issue in other threads.
 
 Anyone ever stop to think that maybe he does have a problem that is more related to the illness previously stated? The constant moving from one tragedy to the next and constantly reaching out for sympathy is certainly and indication
 
  Maybe he doesn't, but the information above certainly is suspicious at the least and FULL of holes.
 
  I have to agree with this
 

Don't go public and then cry discrimination & whatever else when people do not all receive you in a positive manner.
 

 
 

If some of you are samples of civilized western world, I don't want to have anything to do with the "so called civilized western world". You all have to learn a lot about being a good human being. I am sure Jesus is very proud of you !!!
 

I might find this offensive if I believed in religion but I do not. I believe in GOD, the creator.

[debbiedee1957]

AMEN.

And as Paul Harvey would say..."and now for the REST of the story"...although we may never know it.

I stayed uninvolved in these posts until recently. When people started making accusations about attacks and attacking people themselves I decided to weigh the information and contribute.
 
 A man is arrested and spends a week in jail is not allowed to return to the residence or see the children, but he did nothing (suspicious)
 He returns to the board and shows great disappointment that there is no "Where's XXX?" thread.
 He shares the information about his arrest and detainment with a board that has a lot of members.
 He posts that he yet may have another job in the IT field which he was laid off from several years ago. (can only find a paper route in the interim)
 I guess the job either did not materialize or he chose not to share any more information about it. (Didn't get too much attention on the board)
 Got a job painting
 Lost the job "for not painting fast enough"
 Has a lot of emotional issues and shares that on the board
 The sympathies are expressed and everyone thinks he should see a doctor
 When he finally sees a doctor, there are no more issues and he magically feels great but the sympathy continues.
 He claims the spouse is threatening to "kill" the children all of the time and the police are there several times per week. But, somehow the children still want to live with her and the police do not arrest her nor even take the children from her (suspicious). He appears not to be too concerned about this.
 One might wonder if all of these things are actually happening, in reality that is.
 Some board members believe these stories are suspicious at the least and maybe the member is a little delusional. There appears to be an illness that follows this pattern of seeking sympathy and going from tragedy to tragedy. This information is shared on the board in an effort to get his "friends" to understand that he may not be well.
 This sharing of information is perceived as an attack by his "friends" and they in turn begin attacking.
 
 I now see that there is yet another Job in view, that should get some more attention and hope from a lot of his "friends".
 I should also let you know ...
 Did Lee show that this subject will get a lot  of attention so it is now being used? Will this now become the latest heartache from which to get more sympathy when it doesn't work out?
 
 I am unsure what I believe. I know in my heart that I did not attack him and I believe he knows it. I questioned some things he said in an effort to get a better understanding. Even though I quoted him several times, he tried to twist my questions into an attack. I am a moderator on this board but I am also a member and entitled to contribute as such. I did not intervene into these things earlier unless I saw it as a violation of the rules. I have editted a couple of posts from BOTH sides of this issue in other threads.
 
 Anyone ever stop to think that maybe he does have a problem that is more related to the illness previously stated? The constant moving from one tragedy to the next and constantly reaching out for sympathy is certainly and indication
 
 Maybe he doesn't, but the information above certainly is suspicious at the least and FULL of holes.
 
 I have to agree with this
 
 
 
 
  I might find this offensive if I believed in religion but I do not. I believe in GOD, the creator.

[MommaMia]

Please, Chasd60, don't take this personally....It applies to everyone!

I bet just about any one of us that came here and opened up about every aspect of our lives as much as Birol did  would have just as much to be suspicious about.  

None of our lives are fairytale perfect.  If you told us all of your details, I am sure we could pick apart each and every thing and make it seem suspicious or decietful in some way.  It all depends on how you want to portray the other person.

Anyone else remember seeing the episode of Everybody Loves Raymond where each family member recalls the events of the day in a different way?... The one where Ray opens the can of tuna fish and can't drain the juice because of the new can opener Deborah bought?  The same happenings are percieved portrayed be each person in a completely different way.  

Perceptions are as varied as fingerprints.  Everyone has their own.  No two are exactly alike. And depending on preconcieved ideas about a person or event, perceptions can be wrong.

Just a tidbit to think about.

[NightOwl]

NOW WE ARE BEGINNING TO GET SOMEWHERE:



Charlie--you have outlined your ideas clearly and  rationallly and I appreciate that and feel they are not at all unfair conclusions--you have an analytical mind and you always use it well.

Yet, I see the same things you do and come to a different conclusion.  And  I also feel that many of the members here who have met Birol IN PERSON and spent time with him  probably believe his claims (outrageous as they may seem to some)  just as  completely as I do.

I suppose one reason I cut him a lot of slack is because he sometimes gets his English screwed up and also gets carried away emotionally and it can lead to unclear explanations or  offbase  impressions..

I dont know how to explain this great difference in our approach to this except to say that I am probably more credulous and  innocent of the ways of the workd than you are and havent yet met many liars who are really creative  at making things up.  If this makes me more trusting or too trusting   then I guess it is too late to change.

If I am wrong about Birol, then it costs me some time and effort in worrying about him and  expressions of concern (and one good Pporta Potti plus shipping)  If you are wrong about him, then there is the chance that you will have hurt another human being very badly by holding him up as a liar.  THIS IS NOT AN ACCUSATION  OR A CRITICISM OF YOU, but I hope it will help you understand why I defend him so staunchly.

Actually, I LIKE to believe in people--it makes my world a better place to live in.

You and others here have written to him as a criminal and a really  manipulative and sick person.  For a long time, I thought you were just being unsympathetic and unnecessarily  critical.  but your litany of Birol's complaints as you have listed them here  has convinced me that you truly believe him to be exploiting us.

I cant buy your conclusion and I am sorry for the harsh words directed  by some people here  Birol at  (you have to admit that there have been some open sneers)  but at least now I (and others) clearly understand where you are coming from. on this and why you never let up on him.  I even suspect you are   trying to  protect the board and all of us by pointing out  the inconsistencies of Birol's claims.

Maybe someday we will all know the truth of this but I guess I have to go on believing until something is proved otherwise to me for sure..

(PS--your thoughts about organized religion are very similar to my own)

[Camperroo]

Elisa, this is a thought provoking thread.  I have to say I've been on both sides of the fence on this one.  I know that Birol has met several people on this forum and they can ascertain his personality better than those of us who have not.  I know I have done nothing but encourage him to stay strong and seek the appropriate counsel as needed medically and legally.  However, there are times I am honestly suspicious of all the "facts" and also that he so freely discusses very serious legal matters such as his children's life being threatened.  I cannot believe such a thing would take place that the police or children's services would not immediately intervene and remove the children.  However, I also know that a spouse can cry "harm and foul" and the police have to react to that whether that cry is a setup or not for the other spouse.  In that case the spouse of the receiving end of it can really be put into a squeezed position of trying to defend themself against something that never happened.  Working in a medical background for seven years now I have seen very depressed people react far differently than their normal persona...in the form of extreme exxageration for either attention or an attempt to feel like people are rallying around them, which empowers themselves to a certain degree and then they feed off of that.

However, I don't know if this is Birol's situation or not..I hope not for the latter is a very serious issue.  If his family situation is real, then it is a nightmare that is being abused by the very professionals involved in the handling of events and that seems to be a crime unto itself and almost impossible to imagine that a divorce case could be so inconceivably screwed up.  Perhaps his wife is indeed emotionally unstable and is creating havoc...but people can only be fooled for so long with that kind of person.  A court psychologist would be able to spot it from miles away.    However, the descriptions of what are involved in the legal end with 3 lawyers, etc., makes one wonder, perhaps board members have met him under pleasant circumstances but have they been with him when the darker side of life shows up and he reacts to it?  Many people have a private and public persona and they are not always equal.

I hope for Birol's sake that his family situation settles down and that any professionals involved due their utmost to release him from a situation not of his own cause.  If it is the other way, then I hope that he gets the help he needs to guide him out of his own personal crisis.

His situation just appears to becoming more dramatic each and every time and I personally feel he is rather "over reactionary" to some of the very situations he discusses which makes me suspicious of him feeding into his own stories.

But I am only summarizing what I've observed through postings.  No matter whether it may be true or not, either way he is living through a personal hell and I hope in time it will all resolve itself and he can start life anew with hope and strength.