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California PUP Owners, DMV Info Needed

Started by Weber Grill, May 02, 2007, 07:06 PM

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OC Campers

Quote from: TheVikingBut, you can't walk right into it, like a TT or a Hybrid. I think that makes the difference
That could be a difference too.  A tt/hybrid is already setup for living whereas a popup requires setup.  I know you have to popout the hybrid ends but you could live in it without setting it up if you needed to.
 
Jacqui

6Quigs

We purchased a new Coleman Niagara in 2001, and it came with a licence plate that had to be renewed every year at a cost of $81.
Then when it came for time to renew in June 2002, we got a notice telling us about the new law, and that our regrestration was changed to a Permanent Trailer Identification (PTI) with a fee of $20 and to be renewed every five years for a fee of $10.
Our Pop-up measures 19'1" from hitch to rear bumper and it had a toilet and shower.

Now that we have a Hybrid, it is not classied as a CMP but a CCH and we have to pay a $94 regrestration fee every year.

wavery

Quote from: 6QuigsWe purchased a new Coleman Niagara in 2001, and it came with a licence plate that had to be renewed every year at a cost of $81.
Then when it came for time to renew in June 2002, we got a notice telling us about the new law, and that our regrestration was changed to a Permanent Trailer Identification (PTI) with a fee of $20 and to be renewed every five years for a fee of $10.
Our Pop-up measures 19'1" from hitch to rear bumper and it had a toilet and shower.

Now that we have a Hybrid, it is not classied as a CMP but a CCH and we have to pay a $94 regrestration fee every year.
IMO, that would be the law correctly applied. However, I still think that an argument could be made that a hybrid qualifies as a "Tent trailer", thus qualifying for PTI.

The law states, "includes any tent trailer" and that is referring to what defines a "Camp Trailer" (which qualifies for PTI). It reads, "A 'camp trailer' is a vehicle designed to be used on a highway, capable of human habitation for camping or recreational purposes," it goes on to set size parameters but specifically and clearly states, "includes any tent trailer" and that is why the 19' Coleman Niagara tent trailer qualifies as a "Camp Trailer" even though it exceeds the 16' limit referred to in the rule.

I realize that a hybrid is pushing it and I wouldn't spend much time (and no $) trying to make a case out of it but the law is simply not clear and was written at a time when hybrids didn't exist (to my knowledge).

Weber Grill

Quote from: waveryIMO, that would be the law correctly applied. However, I still think that an argument could be made that a hybrid qualifies as a "Tent trailer", thus qualifying for PTI.

The law states, "includes any tent trailer" and that is referring to what defines a "Camp Trailer" (which qualifies for PTI). It reads, "A 'camp trailer' is a vehicle designed to be used on a highway, capable of human habitation for camping or recreational purposes," it goes on to set size parameters but specifically and clearly states, "includes any tent trailer" and that is why the 19' Coleman Niagara tent trailer qualifies as a "Camp Trailer" even though it exceeds the 16' limit referred to in the rule.

I realize that a hybrid is pushing it and I wouldn't spend much time (and no $) trying to make a case out of it but the law is simply not clear and was written at a time when hybrids didn't exist (to my knowledge).

I have really opened a can o' worms...Thanks again for all of your input and personal stories regarding this. I am usually a pretty easy going, law abiding guy but this one thing I will not drop. I have the rest of the month until my registration is due; even If I end up paying the 'illegal' registration of $120 I plan on still fighting it.

The different vehicle body types on your registrations: There is either CMP or CCH. All of you need to check your body type on your registration to ensure they are correct according to the descriptions below. This is another mistake on my registration; they have it as a CCH body type.

CMP is a Camp Trailer
242.   A "camp trailer" is a vehicle designed to be used on a highway, capable of human habitation for camping or recreational purposes, that does not exceed 16 feet in overall length from the foremost point of the trailer hitch to the rear extremity of the trailer body and does not exceed 96 inches in width and includes any tent trailer. Where a trailer telescopes for travel, the size shall apply to the trailer as fully extended. Notwithstanding any other provision of law, a camp trailer shall not be deemed to be a trailer coach.

CCH is Trailer Coach
635.   A "trailer coach" is a vehicle, other than a motor vehicle, designed for human habitation or human occupancy for industrial, professional, or commercial purposes, for carrying property on its own structure, and for being drawn by a motor vehicle. A "park trailer," as described in Section 18009.3 of the Health and Safety Code, is a trailer coach

6Quigs

Quote from: Weber GrillI have really opened a can o' worms...

What about a Chalet or an A-Liner? Technically they are not "Tent" trailers, but do fold down for transport so should qualify for a PTI.
How about a hard sided Palimno folding trailer, a Trailmanor, a High-Low, a small Tear Drop trailer? where do they all fall into the DMV's classification?

Wavery, I agree, I could argue that my Hybrid is a Tent Trailer and look for the PTI classification.
Reading their description of a CCH, A "trailer coach" is a vehicle, other than a motor vehicle, designed for human habitation or human occupancy for industrial, professional, or commercial purposes. Well, I use it only for recreational purposes, so none of the above applies, so yes, it should be a camp trailer :confused:

Camping Coxes

Quote from: waveryThe law states, "includes any tent trailer" and that is referring to what defines a "Camp Trailer" (which qualifies for PTI). It reads, "A 'camp trailer' is a vehicle designed to be used on a highway, capable of human habitation for camping or recreational purposes," it goes on to set size parameters but specifically and clearly states, "includes any tent trailer" and that is why the 19' Coleman Niagara tent trailer qualifies as a "Camp Trailer" even though it exceeds the 16' limit referred to in the rule. .
My sister called me today.  She finally had time (during her lunch break of all times) to research what our gripe was about this issue.  First she called and sited the 16' rule.  I pointed out that further in the code it mentions the words "tent trailer."  She stuck to the 16' rule.  She called me back about two minutes later and read the tent trailer provision, and said no matter the size, a folding trailer, i.e. pop-up, is eligible for PTI plates.  She said anyone who has been denied PTI  needs to go to the DMV (oh joy!) and is eligible for a refund of whatever fees above the PTI fees they had to pay.   Use this code as the evidence and have it in hand.  
 
Remember, DMV folks are not perfect, and they have about a billion different codes and procedures to remember, not to mention the majority of their customers are nt really happy to be there.  But shown the evidence of the "ANY TENT TRAILER" provision, I don't see how they can deny the PTI plates.

zamboni

Quote from: waveryThis paragraph seems to hold the key:
"All trailers except park trailers and trailer coaches are subject to PTI."

In other words, a trailer that can be lived in, in a "trailer park" would not qualify for PTI if it exceeds those measurements. This seems to say that no "Tent Trailer" would ever qualify to live in a trailer park, no matter what the measurements.

After having 2 PUP's with PTI, and now an HTT with a regular plate, I was/am quite interested in this scenario.

From my reading of the laws & guidelines, the key phrase that was the only one that seemed to apply was if the camper "was designed for permanent [full time] habitation".  Yes, those words were in the CA Vehicle Code. At the time, I had a chat with my wife about if I should fight a "regular" plate, since my warranty manual clearly stated that my HTT was not designed for more than (I think) 8 weeks/year... which is clearly not full time... like construction sites.

Sorry, Freedom_5, but further, my Niagara PUP (with PTI) had a fridge, sink, toilet and shower.  Funny, my HTT has only those exact same things!

Unfortunately, but the CA Vehicle Code does not clearly disseminate this:

http://www.dmv.ca.gov/commercial/cvra.htm
PTI guaranteed to apply only if under 10,000 lbs.

*crap*  I think they've upgraded their wording in the past 2 years.  It now includes a designation for "park trailer" instead of just camp trailer and trailer coach.

The net result, only a "camp trailer" (that is under 16 feet), can possibly get PTI. Funny, they gave my Niagara a PTI, after measuring it - a 14' box, but over 18' ball-to-hitch.  Oddly, the law says any "tent trailer" gets PTI, but also says that when a camper "telescopes", the size applies to a camper that is fully extended.  Even a lowly 10' popup box extends to over 16' when set up!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Otherwise, you are screwed.

Weber Grill

Quote from: zamboniAfter having 2 PUP's with PTI, and now an HTT with a regular plate, I was/am quite interested in this scenario.

From my reading of the laws & guidelines, the key phrase that was the only one that seemed to apply was if the camper "was designed for permanent [full time] habitation".  Yes, those words were in the CA Vehicle Code. At the time, I had a chat with my wife about if I should fight a "regular" plate, since my warranty manual clearly stated that my HTT was not designed for more than (I think) 8 weeks/year... which is clearly not full time... like construction sites.

Sorry, Freedom_5, but further, my Niagara PUP (with PTI) had a fridge, sink, toilet and shower.  Funny, my HTT has only those exact same things!

Unfortunately, but the CA Vehicle Code does not clearly disseminate this:

http://www.dmv.ca.gov/commercial/cvra.htm
PTI guaranteed to apply only if under 10,000 lbs.

*crap*  I think they've upgraded their wording in the past 2 years.  It now includes a designation for "park trailer" instead of just camp trailer and trailer coach.

The net result, only a "camp trailer" (that is under 16 feet), can possibly get PTI. Funny, they gave my Niagara a PTI, after measuring it - a 14' box, but over 18' ball-to-hitch.  Oddly, the law says any "tent trailer" gets PTI, but also says that when a camper "telescopes", the size applies to a camper that is fully extended.  Even a lowly 10' popup box extends to over 16' when set up!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Otherwise, you are screwed.

I have another appt at different DMV in the morning. I will be bringing my PUP, Title, Registration and the entire vehicle code printed out as it applies to PTI. I will post the results in approx 24 hours!

wavery

Quote from: zamboniThe net result, only a "camp trailer" (that is under 16 feet), can possibly get PTI. Funny, they gave my Niagara a PTI, after measuring it - a 14' box, but over 18' ball-to-hitch.  Oddly, the law says any "tent trailer" gets PTI, but also says that when a camper "telescopes", the size applies to a camper that is fully extended.  Even a lowly 10' popup box extends to over 16' when set up!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Otherwise, you are screwed.
This is not an accurate (or at least complete) statement. Please read the entire sentence in the Vehicle code (copied and pasted below). You omitted the most relevant (to tent trailers) part of the sentence.

The sentence reads:

242.   A "camp trailer" is a vehicle designed to be used on a highway, capable of human habitation for camping or recreational purposes, that does not exceed 16 feet in overall length from the foremost point of the trailer hitch to the rear extremity of the trailer body and does not exceed 96 inches in width and includes any tent trailer. Where a trailer telescopes for travel, the size shall apply to the trailer as fully extended. Notwithstanding any other provision of law, a camp trailer shall not be deemed to be a trailer coach.

*****(my note) the words "and" and "any" are big words.

The only thing that is unclear in this code is the defanition of a "tent trailer".

zamboni

OK, I'll admit I had not read the previous pages clearly enough to realize you'd already debated the "ANY" wording.

That said, I had never heard of PTI back in 2000 when I bought my first little PUP (used).  When I registered it, I got PTI plates and thought it was the coolest thing (and cheap).

A few years later, in a complicated family swap, I ended up with a Coleman Niagara (with TX plates).  When I tried to register it in CA, they first tried to charge me for NORMAL plates.  I stopped them, inquired, got the run-around about bathrooms, etc, and demanded they walk out to the parking lot and have a look.  There, they saw the popped-down Niagara, and I protested that "it was meant to be lived in - it has a porta-potty, not a REAL bathroom".  They relented and I got PTI plates.

That is why I was upset to not get PTI plates for my Hybrid - because, again, per the warranty, it is not meant to be lived in.  If I stayed in it more than XX nights/year, I violated my warranty, which clearly stated I was not living in it.

I lost that battle.  I now pay yearly (DEARLY) tags.  Wah.

griffsmom

Under standard statutory interpretation, Wayne is right; any tent trailer, aka pop up or folding trailer, regardless of size qualifies for PTI. Our 2002 Coleman Sun Valley was 17.5' bumper to hitch ball and it had PTI plates. The 16' restriction in Veh. Code section 242 cited by Wayne would apply where a trailer telescopes for travel, and is not already included as a tent trailer. So if hybrids are argued to "telescope" then if they are greater than 16' when fully extended, they will not qualify for PTI. I can't think of a hybrid manufactured that is less than 16' so arguably hybrids never qualify for PTI.
 
 
BTW, the code cited by Wayne is merely a defintion section of the vehicle code. The actual code section concerning PTI plates is Veh. Code sec. 5014.1 Unfortunately, our legislators did not see fit to maintain any kind of continuity or consistency between their verbage used in the defintions section and that used in other substantive sections. So Sec. 5014.1 only refers to "trailers" (see subdiv. (D)).
 
In any event, Weber Grill, your PU should qualify for PTI, regardless of what you may have been told. You might try enlisting the help of a local dealer if you can't get anywhere with DMV. They register trailers all the time in connection with their sales and may be able to help you get to the right person to get your PTI plates.
 
(None of the above should be construed as giving legal advice or creating any semblance of any attorney-client relationship.)

oldmoose

Quote from: griffsmom(None of the above should be construed as giving legal advice or creating any semblance of any attorney-client relationship.)
Sounds like any attorney to me.:D
 
Moose

Camping Coxes

Quote from: griffsmom(None of the above should be construed as giving legal advice or creating any semblance of any attorney-client relationship.)
Covered your proverbial keester on that one, eh Lori???

griffsmom

Quote from: oldmooseSounds like any attorney to me.:D
 
Moose
Quote from: Camping CoxesCovered your proverbial keester on that one, eh Lori???

welcome to America... ;)

Weber Grill

Well, everyone I visited the Appointment only Poway DMV this morning (they have 2, the other is non appointments) and I am happy to announce I received my PTI plate.

It only took 20 minutes and $20 to convert the title and fix the body type on my title.

So, all you California PUP owners that don't have PTI plates, print out the code and definitions and make your appointments to take care of this if you are paying annual registrations.

I kept my cool (unlike the first time around)  ;) . When I first checked in at the desk, the lady asked what I wanted to do so I explained my visit and she said "Does it have a sink?"
I answered politely "Why yes it does, and a shower, toilet and I can sleep in it!" She said "Well, it doesn't qualify" and I replied...
 "Yes it does, would you like to read the code I brought with me?"
She just handed me the ticket and told me to have a seat.

I was called to the window and explained it again to the girl helping me and she didn't even know what a tent trailer was! She asked if I had it with me, I pointed out to the parking lot; she looked surprised that I had it with me. (I didn't tell her I tried this at a different office, didn't want to raise suspicion :yikes: )

The 'Supervisor' who reviewed the code with the girl commented that it was kind of vague but it made sense to her. They were impressed with 'All the homework' I did :confused: , what homework...I printed the vehicle code and read it and understood it.

So, thank you all for your inputs on this thread and get to your DMVs next week and take care of this, I must say I am a 'Happy Camper' (pun was intended)