polar package for pups?

[leefamfun]

I plan on doing some cold weather camping.(high 20s,low 30s at night,mid 30s,mid 40s during the day)I was wondering if there is a polar package for pups like the packages available for tts.

[austinado16]

Here's what's been recommend by those that have gone before us:

1) Cover the tops of the bunk canvas with the "Sportsmans Blankets" sold at REI, Cabala's, Campmor ($13-$15ea) and put the silver side down.  You can also find the same blanket called a "military casualty blanket" for about $16 for a 3 pack on ebay........that's the one that I used.  Olive drab on one side, silver on the other.  A company called Popup Gizmos sells them custom sized and sewn up for your specific camper for about $89/pair including the hold down clips.  I used the large size of "binder clips" from "Staples" and they were $4/box of 12.  I cut and sewed 2 together to make my front bunk and used a scrap left over to sew to the another one to make the rear bunk cover.  Easy and cheap.  You can read more about this mod and see photos in the Product Review Forum thread, "bunk end covers out of Casualty Blankets ."  

You place the silver side down in the winter or at night to hold the heat in.  Turn them silver side up during the heat of the day to reflect the heat and keep the bunks cool.

2) Buy a roll of Reflectix Insulation (Lowes, Home Deep Hole, etc.) and cut panels to fit into your camper windows.  Store them under the bunk mattresses when not in use.  Simply unzip the windows, slide the Reflectix in place and then zip back up.  It has an R value of 9, so pretty decent for 1/4" of material. (I haven't done this yet, but it's the next mod.)

3) Get a propane heater so that you don't have to run the camper's forced air furnace which is typically noisey and burns quite a bit of propane along with running down your 12v battery with the blower fan.  Many here use the "Mr. Heater" or "Mr. Buddy" that take the small canisters of propane......leave the roof vent and a window cracked open so the heater isn't using your oxygen supply, and isn't putting Carbon Monoxide into the camper.  The other heater option, which is what I bought, is the Olympian Wave 6 catalytic heater.  Same venting required, but it's catalytic so the CO emmissions are basically zero.  They're on ebay all the time for cheap.  Search "catalytic heater."  I've installed a 10' flex hose with quick disconnects like my take-out stove, so the heater can be hooked up to the camper's main gas line when needed.  Burns 1/4lb of propane per hour on high (5,900btu).  More about this mod in the thread about Catalytic Heaters .

4) Foam insulation, like the strip you put in your window when you install a window mount air conditioner in your house.  Put this around where the canvas bunk sides meet the plywood bunks to keep the draft out (I haven't done this one yet either).

5) Reflectix under the mattresses to reflect the cold back down and your body heat back up (also haven't done this one).

[AustinBoston]

Many here use the "Mr. Heater" or "Mr. Buddy" that take the small canisters of propane......leave the roof vent and a window cracked open so the heater isn't using your oxygen supply, and isn't putting Carbon Monoxide into the camper.  The other heater option, which is what I bought, is the Olympian Wave 6 catalytic heater.  Same venting required, but it's catalytic so the CO emmissions are basically zero.

I think a word or two is in order about CO (carbon monoxide) emissions.  First, carbon monoxide (highly poisonous gas) is easily confused with carbon dioxide (a.k.a. CO2, mildly toxic in large quantities).  Everything that burns or breathes produces carbon dioxide.  Everything below is about carbon monoxide (the really dangerous one)


No properly adjusted propane burning device will produce significant amounts of CO if it has an adequate oxygen supply.

Every propane burning device including catalytic devices will produce dangerous amounts of CO if it is starved for oxygen, unless it has an O2 sensor that will shut it off in low-oxygen situations.

My opinion is that if any propane heater (that does not vent to the outside) is used when sleeping, then you need a carbon monoxide detector.  Otherwise, you are betting your life on a single point of failure.

---

I would also say that if you are camping with hookups (and can tolerate the noise), skip the whole portable heater thing and use the furnace.  It will put out several times as much heat as any portable heater without having to open the window.

---

One other thing...most pop-up manufacturers caution that below about 20

[beacher]

.....
3) Get a propane heater so that you don't have to run the camper's forced air furnace which is typically noisey and burns quite a bit of propane along with running down your 12v battery with the blower fan.  Many here use the "Mr. Heater" or "Mr. Buddy" that take the small canisters of propane..........

That might not work in Utah!:D

When Mr. Buddy heaters work, they work well.  However, they will not function reliably about 5000 feet above sea level.  They have a safety Shut Off feature built-in that senses the amount of oxygen in the vicinity.  The problem with that little safety feature is that if you are at an elevation more than 5000 ft. above sea level Mr. Buddy seses the lack of oxygen, (he thinks that you are suffocating), and it shuts itself off.

The Coleman catalytic ProCat heater is an option.  While it's output less than a Mr. Buddy, it will stay lit and usable.

I'll be camping next weekend in the local mountains with temps in the low 30's at night.  I'm going out to my PopUp right now to make some window panels with some SpectraFoil!! :p

[JimS]

That might not work in Utah!:D

When Mr. Buddy heaters work, they work well.  However, they will not function reliably about 5000 feet above sea level.  They have a safety Shut Off feature built-in that senses the amount of oxygen in the vicinity.  The problem with that little safety feature is that if you are at an elevation more than 5000 ft. above sea level Mr. Buddy seses the lack of oxygen, (he thinks that you are suffocating), and it shuts itself off.

The Coleman catalytic ProCat heater is an option.  While it's output less than a Mr. Buddy, it will stay lit and usable.

I'll be camping next weekend in the local mountains with temps in the low 30's at night.  I'm going out to my PopUp right now to make some window panels with some SpectraFoil!! :p

My Mr. Buddy has worked well at elevations of 7000 feet, though it will shut off if the PU is closed up or is stuck in a somewhat confined corner.  I have had this happen at elevations of 4000 feet.  I do find it more difficult to light at higher elevations.  I have never had my CO monitor to sound, even when the Mr Buddy has shut itself off.  Give it a little air and it will work fine.

[austinado16]

I think a word or two is in order about CO (carbon monoxide) emissions.  First, carbon monoxide (highly poisonous gas) is easily confused with carbon dioxide (a.k.a. CO2, mildly toxic in large quantities).  Everything that burns or breathes produces carbon dioxide.  Everything below is about carbon monoxide (the really dangerous one)


No properly adjusted propane burning device will produce significant amounts of CO if it has an adequate oxygen supply.

Every propane burning device including catalytic devices will produce dangerous amounts of CO if it is starved for oxygen, unless it has an O2 sensor that will shut it off in low-oxygen situations.

My opinion is that if any propane heater (that does not vent to the outside) is used when sleeping, then you need a carbon monoxide detector.  Otherwise, you are betting your life on a single point of failure.

---

I would also say that if you are camping with hookups (and can tolerate the noise), skip the whole portable heater thing and use the furnace.  It will put out several times as much heat as any portable heater without having to open the window.
Austin

All of these heaters come with warnings about opening a vent and window (as I mentioned) so that they have their own air supply and so that they're not polluting your air with CO.  They also all have low oxygen sensing shut down to keep them from using up all your 02 supply.  The Olympian Catalytics are advertised to work up to about 12,000' so altitude isn't an issue.  One Catalytic heater manufacturer's website said the Catatylics burn so clean that the amount of CO produced is not measurable.

[tlhdoc]

We try to camp at least once a month in the winter and have ended up camping in the single digits F over night.  Here is what I do to help insulate the camper.  
 
1.  I have Pop Up Gizmos installed on the bunkends.  I don't really think it matters which way you put them on in the winter.
 
2.  If we are not using the rear bunk I hang a "emergency blanket" (the same material as the PUGs) across the rear bunk.  we call that bunk the "meat locker".
 
3.  I have the accordion folding sun shades that have "bubble wrap" on the inside that I insert in the windows of the bunkends.  I trimmed the sunshades to fit between the screen and the tenting.  If I were doing it again I would just slide them in between the frame of the bunkends and the tenting.  You have a larger area insulated this way and it works just as well.
 
4.  I put foam air conditioner strips in the crack between the bunkend bed frames and the bunkend tenting.  This stops a lot of cold air from entering the PU.  Note my bunkend tenting is not permanently attached to the bed frame.  If it were you would not need to put the strips along the permanently attached side.
 
5.  At night when the curtains are closed I hang additional survival blankets along the tenting in the box of the camper.  They help to contain the heat in the PU.
 
6.  If I have electric hookups I run my AC heat.  I also use a cube heater.  If we need to I run the furnace.  The AC unit blows the heat (from itself and all of the hot air that rises) into the bunkend and circulates the air.  This way you do not have the heat at the ceiling and cold by the floor.  If I don't have electric I use fans to do the same thing.
 
A few additional notes.  I use my cassette toilet and have not had any problems with it freezing,  I keep heat on at all times when it is below freezing.  I have the water system winterized, but I do use the sink drain.  I pour more water down the drain before popping down.  If you are camping at a full hookup site  and you want to be able to dump grey/black water down the sewer, and it is going to snow.  Mark your sewer connection so that you can find it under the snow.  Shoveling your campsite out looking for it is not fun.  Don't ask...
 
You can see pictures of some of my winter camping/snow camping at my webshots site.

[RLD]

Wow...that is some serious PUP snow camping.
Any problems when folding vinyl windows or the canvas when it's that cold?

[tlhdoc]

Wow...that is some serious PUP snow camping.
Any problems when folding vinyl windows or the canvas when it's that cold?

I haven't had any problems setting up or popping down in the cold.  When I popdown I keep the heat running as long as possible.

[austinado16]

Those winter camping photos are insane!  That is sooooo wild!  All I can say is, you guys are hard core!

[AustinBoston]

All of these heaters come with warnings about opening a vent and window (as I mentioned) so that they have their own air supply and so that they're not polluting your air with CO.  They also all have low oxygen sensing shut down to keep them from using up all your 02 supply.  The Olympian Catalytics are advertised to work up to about 12,000' so altitude isn't an issue.  One Catalytic heater manufacturer's website said the Catatylics burn so clean that the amount of CO produced is not measurable.

Ever have an oxygen sensor fail?  Every car I've owned except one has had an O2 sensor that needed replacement.

Get a CO detector.  You are betting your life on a single point of failure device that WILL FAIL eventually.

Austin

[JimQPublic]

The "O2 Sensor" on Mr. Buddy heaters is a simple thermocouple and safety valve arrangement just like on a water heater or propane fridge.  When combustion is incomplete due to low 02, high altitude, plugged jet, etc. the thermocouple doesn't heat up enough to generate sufficient electricity to hold the electromagnetic safety valve open.  For anybody who's had trouble with their fridge or water heater pilot going out- you know that thermocouples can be mighty troublesome.  Hence some Mr. Buddys work fine at 7,000 feet, others have trouble at sea level.  Or so I've heard.

Back to the original question-
We have a Chalet which is insulated and only about 1/2 the air volume of a typical popup.  With two big deep cycle batteries we have gone 4 days and nights of subfreezing weather, then towed 150 miles and gone 3 days and nights of rainy/sleety weather.  At the end our batteries were still going strong.

If it were me, and I had a conventional fabric popup, for dry camping I would suggest getting a 1000 watt or bigger "inverter" generator to recharge the batteries each day.  Also make sure your converter has a multi-stage charge program such as the recent WFCO models.  Go with at least 20 amps per battery- so if you have two batteries it would be good to upgrade the converter to a 40-50 amp model.

Even with one (good) battery I think running the generator for an hour in the morning and an hour in the evening would keep you in good shape.

For hookup camping a combination of furnace, two portable electric heaters, and electric mattress pads should have you toasty 24/7.  

If the campground has 30 amp power, in most cases I've seen there are two circuts on each power pedastal.  One 30 amp outlet and breaker and one 20 amp breaker feeding a conventional 20 amp duplex outlet.  Plug the trailer cord into the 30 amp outlet and run a heavy 12AWG 50' or shorter extension cord from the 20 amp outlet direct to one of the electric heaters.

Or so I say.

[AustinBoston]

The "O2 Sensor" on Mr. Buddy heaters is a simple thermocouple and safety valve arrangement just like on a water heater or propane fridge.  When combustion is incomplete due to low 02, high altitude, plugged jet, etc. the thermocouple doesn't heat up enough to generate sufficient electricity to hold the electromagnetic safety valve open.  For anybody who's had trouble with their fridge or water heater pilot going out- you know that thermocouples can be mighty troublesome.  Hence some Mr. Buddys work fine at 7,000 feet, others have trouble at sea level.  Or so I've heard.

I really, really, really hope this is wrong, because you can definitely kill people with a flame that will keep a thermocouple on.  I have had them stay on using a wooden match!  Thermocouples are OK for "flame out" sensors, but not for oxygen levels.

For hookup camping a combination of furnace, two portable electric heaters, and electric mattress pads should have you toasty 24/7.

This has been my experience as well.

Austin

[DoubleD]

We have camped in the Colorado mountains in early spring and it got to 3 degrees above zero F.  We used one battery, and had no problem running the factory installed furnace all night long.  We closed and clamped the curtains on the unused bunk ends, as well as using our clothing bags to "seal" the curtains.  The furnace kept the camper warmer than normal at its lowest setting, as I believe the thermostat's placement makes it more susceptable to reading the lower temps from outside.  The PU temperature was around 60 degrees F in the morning, whereas in warmer temps it keeps the PU around 50 degrees.

I do not believe in buying more equipment to carry around in a PU that is already provided with an adequate furnace.  Storage and weight are areas I pay special attention to, so why re-purchase a heating device, safe or not?

[JimQPublic]

I really, really, really hope this is wrong, because you can definitely kill people with a flame that will keep a thermocouple on.  Thermocouples are OK for "flame out" sensors, but not for oxygen levels.

..
Austin

According to page 5 of the Mr. Heater Buddy manual the "Oxygen Depletion Sensor" is simply hole in the side of the venturi tube, past the pilot orifice.