We Are On Fire!!!!

[pop-up possee]

Just wanted to let everyone know who is being affected by the fires that my thoughts and prayers are with you.

[paspilot]

Wavery,
The best San Diego info I've seen is here:
http://www.cbs8.com/

I pray that everyone in our happy group makes it OK.
My aunt lost a home twenty some odd years ago in the Laurel Canyon fire. I spent a day sifting through the rubble for something to save and found nothing. The house next door got hot enough to peel paint and break glass, but was otherwise untouched. I wouldn't want anyone to go through that.

Carl

[wavery]

Wavery,
The best San Diego info I've seen is here:
http://www.cbs8.com/

I pray that everyone in our happy group makes it OK.
My aunt lost a home twenty some odd years ago in the Laurel Canyon fire. I spent a day sifting through the rubble for something to save and found nothing. The house next door got hot enough to peel paint and break glass, but was otherwise untouched. I wouldn't want anyone to go through that.

Carl

Thank you....that was a helpful link.

I think that the reports of 500 homes destroyed in Fallbrook may have been exaggerated or simply mistaken. I can only find reports of 150 mobile homes (I didn't even know there was a mobile home park there) and maybe 25 sporadic homes burned.

Fallbrook is made up of some very large estates (Avg 2 acres) and a LOT of foliage. The fire did come very close to my brother's property but so far, not even close to ours. I am very happy because we are the crest of a hill, overlooking 2 large valleys.

[cyclone]

Prayers from TN that you all are ok - it's unbelievable to watch the news.  Stay safe!

[TheViking]

We have 2 of them.

Then myquestion is why are they not using them? All I see is one DC-10 at Lake Arrowhead. I'm sure if we were using a full on 747 it would make the news. And, in my estimation a 747 would carry alot more water than a DC-10.
 
 
 
Also, all I have seen the DC-10 drop is fire retardant, not water.  Or as in Arizona they are called slurry bombers.

[Recumbentman]

UCSD did not have any classes on Monday or Tuesday, all students were asked to stay in the dorms due to bad air quality...they don't have air conditioning in the dorms and it was getting a bit warm.  They got word yesterday that campus was closed for classes for the balance of the week, my son John was able to catch a ride home with a friend from Ventura last night.  I was relieved and happy to see him.  It will be a great reunion on Friday, as my older son will be here from Oregon for 24 hours too!  We continue to pray for everyone affected by the fire storms...

Mary (& Brad)

[wavery]

Then myquestion is why are they not using them? All I see is one DC-10 at Lake Arrowhead. I'm sure if we were using a full on 747 it would make the news. And, in my estimation a 747 would carry alot more water than a DC-10.
 
 
 
Also, all I have seen the DC-10 drop is fire retardant, not water.  Or as in Arizona they are called slurry bombers.

You're right Brian. They are DC10s, which is also a "Heavy" jet, that they are using. There are 2 of them in service and they are using them to drop retardant.

The real issue is not the amount of equipment. It seems that the issue is CalFire is controlling the assets and will not allow air assets in the fire areas without CalFire "Spotters" on board. There are literally hundreds of aircraft that could be used, there just simply isn't the CalFire manpower to coordinate all this.

From what I have seen, the choppers with the 400 gallon water buckets are the best tools for structure protection. Those things are incredibly accurate and can do the work of 20 fireman with hoses. The important thing is that they can go anywhere and move quickly (compared to men and equipment in trucks). I saw one of those choppers make one water drop every 2 minutes on one area. He made 50 drops in 1 1/2 hours, with pin-point accuracy. That's 20,000 gallons of water in less time than one of those heavies could get turned around to make 2 drops with questionable results. That guy was actually picking up water from residents swimming pools.

Those "Heavy" aircraft can be most effective dropping retardant because of the altitude and speed that they drop it from. Even then, the wind blows the retardant out so thinly that it is questionable how effective it is. Accuracy is crucial in structure protection and those big airplanes are just not very accurate. They also have to maintain nearly 200mph just to stay airborne. Helicopters can drop in place and the C130s (and other fixed wing aircraft) can fly at about 60mph. They are far more effective IMHO.

The media likes to concentrate on those big "Spectacular" looking aircraft but I think that the cost and physical result per $ and man-hours are far better with the smaller, slower aircraft. I would much rather see them able to deploy 10 more, water bucket carrying, choppers than to add one of those big aircraft to the arsenal. It all boils down to man-power.

The coordination and safety of all of these aircraft has to be a nightmare. Add to the firefighting aircraft, all of the news choppers, it really must be complicated.

[TheViking]

You're right Brian.

 
This is all I needed to hear Wayne.

[AustinBoston]

The coordination and safety of all of these aircraft has to be a nightmare. Add to the firefighting aircraft, all of the news choppers, it really must be complicated.

The FAA will usually put them under VFR rules with "flight following,"  which means individual pilots are responsible for "see & avoid", and FAA will chime in if they detect a specific problem.

Sometimes, they will suggest a circuit, such as "enter fire area from the south, depart area to the Northeast, return to Blavand along a southbound heading, staying east of Victor 881," but the responsibility to avoid other aircraft remains with the pilot.  The difficulty with the circuit approach in this case is that it assumes the firefighting aircraft are departing from one airport and fighting one fire.  While I have never heard of a midair between firefighting aircraft, it has definitely happened with news choppers.

The FAA is more interested in making sure scheduled commerical aircraft don't get mixed up with firefighting aircraft or excess smoke than it is telling firefighting aircraft where to go, how to get there, or what to do next.

Austin

[wavery]

The FAA will usually put them under VFR rules with "flight following,"  which means individual pilots are responsible for "see & avoid", and FAA will chime in if they detect a specific problem.

Sometimes, they will suggest a circuit, such as "enter fire area from the south, depart area to the Northeast, return to Blavand along a southbound heading, staying east of Victor 881," but the responsibility to avoid other aircraft remains with the pilot.  The difficulty with the circuit approach in this case is that it assumes the firefighting aircraft are departing from one airport and fighting one fire.  While I have never heard of a midair between firefighting aircraft, it has definitely happened with news choppers.

The FAA is more interested in making sure scheduled commerical aircraft don't get mixed up with firefighting aircraft or excess smoke than it is telling firefighting aircraft where to go, how to get there, or what to do next.

Austin

CalFire actually puts up an airborne "flight control center".

The big issue seems to be these "Spotters" that CalFire insists be on-board every fire-service aircraft in California. CalFire seems to think that it is crucial that their people be on-board so that communication and other coordination procedures are all under the control of CalFire. It seems to be a lot of "Power-tripping" to me. However, they may have some logic that make sense. I just don't see it. There are a lot of frustrated, qualified pilots sitting on the ground, watching people's homes burn.

There are literally hundreds of aircraft on the ground ready to go and CalFire refuses to let them in the area. :eyecrazy: To me....that is unconscionable......but what do I know???

I'll bet there will be some real brew-ha-ha after this is all over. I'll also bet that some heads will roll if there was power-tripping going on. The "Terminator" just won't put up with that crap.

[AustinBoston]

CalFire actually puts up an airborne "flight control center".

That could get them into some trouble with the FAA...

The big issue seems to be these "Spotters" that CalFire insists be on-board every fire-service aircraft in California. CalFire seems to think that it is crucial that their people be on-board so that communication and other coordination procedures are all under the control of CalFire. It seems to be a lot of "Power-tripping" to me. However, they may have some logic that make sense. I just don't see it. There are a lot of frustrated, qualified pilots sitting on the ground, watching people's homes burn.

There are literally hundreds of aircraft on the ground ready to go and CalFire refuses to let them in the area. :eyecrazy: To me....that is unconscionable......but what do I know???

I'll bet there will be some real brew-ha-ha after this is all over. I'll also bet that some heads will roll if there was power-tripping going on. The "Terminator" just won't put up with that crap.

As I was reading your post, I was wondering if anyone was trying to get this info to the governor...if he doesn't know yet, he will.

It reminds me of the Exxon Valdez oil spill; people were jumping out of their skin wanting to take action, but the offical with the authority to say "go for it" (I think it was the Valdez, AK harbormaster, but I may be wrong) insisted on sitting on his hands.  Meanwhile, oil was spread over a wider and wider area...

Austin

[AustinBoston]

I want to add that flying close to the ground when the ground is uneven and the winds are high can be a bit tricky.

Austin

[wavery]

I want to add that flying close to the ground when the ground is uneven and the winds are high can be a bit tricky.

Austin

It's actually just as tricky when there is no wind. The pilot will be flying along with good control and as soon as they get above the fire, they are hit with a turbulent up-draft. On top of that, the release their load at the same time as they get hit with the updraft and they are on a rocket ride to the moon.

As guess the good news is.....you can't crash into the ground going up

[6Quigs]

Our prayers are with everyone that is affected by the fires and their families.

As for pilots and planes not being allowed to fight the fire, I remember the same discussion 4 years ago, how military helicopters and planes were not being used, because they did not have the correct training. Happy to see that there were some lessons learned 4 years ago, and even though the homes lost might be high, people have evacuated when told to do so, and the loss of life is low.

[AustinBoston]

For those not familiar with the area, this article:
http://www.startribune.com/484/story/1504712.html

states that the wildfires "have burned about 410,000 acres, or 640 square miles."

That is equivalent to slightly more than half the state of Rhode Island.

Austin